THE BRIEF A&G TOUR

[Adam Lawrence]

Too scientific for me I'm afraid. But herbicides that kill broadleaved weeds while leaving grass are perfectly normal, so I guess it's just a refined version of that.

[Sean_A]

TRUMP CONTINUED

The great variety of putting surfaces continues with an example of relatively sedate movement on the 12th.


One of my favourite holes on the course, #13 is best played out left near a steep drop-off.  Unless the golfer is quite long, there is a risk of the dunes blocking out an approach from the right.  The raised green is one of the more sedate on the course, but not without interest.  For some reason the circular bunker style works on some holes and not on others.  I wonder if there was any thought to using different bunker looks when the situation arises.  The setting for 13th is outstanding.  The great variety of putting surfaces continues with an example of relatively sedate movement.   


We made the arduous climb to the knob tee for #14, but it was well worth it for the views.  It must be a carry of 230ish yards to the fairway from way back.  The target is actually quite narrow as well. 


The final short par 4 is very welcome.  While the left side of the 15th fairway is obviously bad news, it didn't seem as though one could drive it far enough right to take advantage of the length offered by this severely angled green.  There is another 25% of the green to the left out of the photos.


We now turn and make the run home beating back into the wind.  The 16th suffers aesthetically for bunkering, but it is a very good hole set on a diagonal line. 




Perhaps the best longish two-shotter on the course, the 17th is pure perfection.  The diagonal green set on a saddle requires the drive position to be very accurate. 






The home hole is a monster from the back tees - 651 yards!  Tired of climbing to put a peg in the ground, we all voted against even taking a look from this tee.  As it was, the white tee is 586 yards, playing uphill for the second and third shots and into the wind - three good woods are required for most.  Is this overkill?  Without a doubt and by far the least enjoyable hole on the course.  The hole somehow required 18 bunkers which when viewed from on high look ridiculous. To make matters worse, the hole doesn't finish near the house so more walking is required.  Such a pity this course ended in such a slog. 

Despite the rather dubious, but to be expected poor condition of the greens and especially fairways, I don't think there is any doubt Trump International is a great course.  The course will be hugely popular, increase golf tourism in the area and likely be rated top 25 in GB&I. Some elements such as the swales around the greens and uphill approaches were overly relied upon.  However, the putting surfaces are outstanding and the bunker placement is generally very imaginative and thought provoking.  That said, the repetitive oval shape and size of the bunkers needs a serious re-evaluation. The fairways are generally wide enough, but with the rough being incredibly penal, perhaps some thought should be given to creating ten additional yards of first cut. One aspect of the design which is very off-putting for me is the long and often uphill green to tee walks.  The course is essentially set-up for the back tees so those playing forward tees walk further without hitting shots.  Part of the reason for these walks is surely down to the site being so rambunctious (reminds me Enniscrone), but I would prefer if more of the course was routed to suit the forward tees.  For anybody thinking of travelling a long distance to play Trump International, I recommend waiting 3-4 years for the course to properly grow in. Your patience will undoubtedly be rewarded with a course in great nick.  Of course, there is no Doak rating. 1*  2013

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks for the tour of Balmedie, Sean... Inevitably I agree with some things you say and disagree with others (e.g. I don't think the course is set up for the back tees - in fact I know Martin Hawtree and Caspar Grauballe spent a lot of time trying to work out the shortest green to tee walk for the 2nd and 3rd back, not an easy task when the land dictates so much)...

I think the course is excellent... Most of the design I liked a lot... However, I've said it in the other thread and I agree with Brian - the one thing that disappointed me a little was the number of greens that were raised up artificially with surrounding swales and mounds when it would have been so easy to use side-dunes as kick-plates and more natural too - see the 8th green which was my favourite.

[Sean_A]

Ally

Thats fair enough, but I can't believe it wasn't possible to keep some of the tees at lower elevation and thus closer to the previous green.  It seemed quite obvious to me that an effort was made to create vistas and that meant raised tees.  That in and of itself isn't a huge deal, but of course the knock on effect is downhill tee shot and uphill approach.  That theme was played to death.  I would have preferred of the design picked its moments to go high and showcase the views.  Of course, as you allude to, part of the problem (as I see it) is modern design "demands" a large set of tees.  This makes it much harder to control the extra walking.

Ciao 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,

I can't quite recall if I thought there were opportunities to have lower tee-sites that would have made for easier walking green to tee... But when you've dunes those size, you have to get over them to get from A to B on quite a few occasions so quite often it ends up with high points that suit tees... I'm sure you are right though - your memories are much more fresh than mine...

[Greg Taylor]

Sean, the bunkering reminds me a little bit of Lytham: small, dotted around which can be visually intimindating and probably too penal.

That all said, and despite me not wanting to like it, but from the pics it does indeed like the course has the potential to contend in the higer echelons of the Top 100 GB&I.

I was initially very suspicious of the last UK's Gold World rankings but based on your comments and the pics it certainly warrants further discussion. Let's not get into whether the green fee is VFM however.

I would be interested to hear your opinion on Royal Aberdeen. When I did my trip of the highlands I was disappointed with the holes away from the shoreline - the back nine essentially. Did you play it?

[Adam Lawrence]

No doubt in my mind that the high tees are overdone. The eighteenth is the worst offender. You have a 600-odd yard hole with eighteen or nineteen bunkers, and yet, from the top tee, it looks small and puny - because the tee is just so damned high up. Much better hole from some of the lower tees in my mind, although there is one particular deck right out on the edge of the seawall dune that, while very high up, is undeniably dramatic.

[Sean_A]

Adam

No question the scale is out of whack on the 18th.  This is one reason why I wondered if other and larger styles of bunkers were considered for this project.  There is also an issue visually with the second par 5.  All the wee pots crammed together on such a grand site looks at odds to me.

Greg T

Yes, we played Aberdeen - it is up next.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Adam, Sean,

Undeniably, there are a lot of back tees placed high. But the question should be whether there are gratuitous climbs for the 2nd and 3rd back sets... For instance, you arrive at 18 high up, don't you? I remember the same at 14... And you need to climb out of dunes to reach other playing corridors... In other words, the natural position was the high one...

Can you remember examples with unnecessary climbs?... 16 comes to mind - that tee could easily have been low.

The back sets should be entirely disregarded...

[Sean_A]

Ally

I seem to recall unnecessarily raised tees on:

2, 4, 5, 11, 14, 17 & 18.

Thinking back on it, part of the issue with the long walks was due to exiting the greens from the rear even though there may have been a quicker route.  Part of this may be due to aesthetics, some due to cost of building/maintaining steps and some due to the concept of wide paths to allow more chit chat (I spose) between holes.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I do remember climbing back up to the 2nd tee when they could have been slightly lower and left (but that would have been worse visibility and angle)… Can’t recall 4 tees……  5th tees were just staged up the dune, were they not – back ones higher, front ones lower…. 11 there was one path round to the right at grade level with low tees – and back tees staged up the natural dune…. 14 I walked off the back of 13 to the tee I hit from – completely natural…. 17 climbed back a bit… 18 you start high….

You don’t mention 16 but that was one hole where there seemed no advantage to be gained from trekking up the dune

There are a lot of high tees for sure…. Would it have been a better course if the designer had tried to stage all his tees lower, regardless of the natural landforms, regardless of desired length, regardless of visibility and regardless of extending walks round or over dunes to reach the lower positions? I don’t know – I’d need to go back and have a proper look… I too like tees positioned in to low positions to the side of dunes if possible so I’m sure there must have been some opportunities…. But overall, the tees (and there were 6 on each hole remember) seemed to make use of the landscape in my (slightly hazy) opinion…

[Sean_A]

Ally

I don't think it was practical to go crazy with low tees.  The site is too freaky for that.  Other sites with crazy land such as Ennicrone are blessed with some flat land to balance the mountain climbing.  That said, it seems like Hawtree went out of his way to create high tees/views.  Maybe the odd blind shot would have actually been better.  There must have been some opportunities (and would bet on it) to exit greens and whack a forward tee in there instead of so much walking around then past tees.  Instead, all the exits are to the rear and leading down (up really!) winding paths.  Trump just seems like it made no effort to recall traditional links golf.  I feel like there is an extra mile of walking when a shot can't be hit.  I gotta say, when we played Carnoustie Burnside the next day everybody was relieved to actually see tees from greens.  All in all, if I were the guy looking for site on that property, I would have routed some holes away from the dunes just to create more diversity - especially if a second 18 were planned.  The dunes are wonderful, but a doubled edged sword.  Still, Trump will be a complete and total winner with visitors - I have no doubt of that.  There is an awful lot of good stuff going on there.

Ciao

Ciao

[RJ_Daley]

Nothing to contribute for lack of having never been there, but a thank you for another great thread, Sean. 

[Niall C]

Sean

Good point about the paths, the Romans would have been proud of them. Look forward to seeing Royal Aberdeen.

Niall

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Sean,

Can you explain the strategy of the 5th hole at Trump? Is there any reason why you would go left of the center-line bunker, even with the pin tucked in to the right?

[Steve Lapper]

Sean,

Can you explain the strategy of the 5th hole at Trump? Is there any reason why you would go left of the center-line bunker, even with the pin tucked in to the right?

Donal,

I'll take a run at an answer. For longer hitters (or downwind with a hybrid or fairway wood) a shot down the left opens the entire green up and permits a view unobstructed or impeded by the push-up fronts of the green. Any knockdown like approach from the right plays parallel to the spine on the green making a run-off the back a distinct possibility. Also, the angles of the tees vary, even from the angle of Sean's picture. Most of the tees offset one another and aren't perfectly stacked in line. Hope that helps a bit

Cheers,

S

[Sean_A]

ROYAL ABERDEEN

Originally playing over the Queens Links & Kings Links between the rivers Dee & Don from at least 1565, the club moved to its curent site just to the north in 1888.  The new course design is attributed to Robert Simpson (likely with some input from his brother Archie) wih a total length of 5400 yards.  Simpson was a typical jack of all golf trades professional having been runner-up in the 1880 Open and a well known club maker who was the pro for Carnousitie between 1891 and 1898.  Like many Carnoustie pros, Simpson eventually made his way to the United States where he would win two Western Opens (1907 & 1911...a period in which Scottish golfers dominated at the Western).  While changes have been made by such esteemed architects as James Braid in 1925, the basic layout remains as it was 130 years ago.   

The tee set hard against the house windows, the first, while lovely, isn't really like many of the next eight holes.   


#3


More to follow. 

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Brian

I disagree and think Trump is more than a competent design.  I did give Trump an Arble star, mind you, at £195 for a game Hawtree would have had to knock this one out of the park and I think while great, Trump falls well short of that.  Trump isn't really isn't my bag.  I don't think there is much there that couldn't have been predicted/expected if one knew the site.  I prefer a bit more risky and varied design even if it all doesn't work.  The walk is hard as hell anyway so why not come up with a few cool ideas?  Don't get me wrong, I like the course, but wasn't wowed by it except for the views.  If you are on a jolly near Aberdeen anyway, you should give it a look.  Maybe you will like it much more than me, but knowing you - it is best to wait a good three years for a proper grow in.     


ROYAL ABERDEEN CONTINUED

The 4th is another hole playing through dunes and with a driving zone which is difficult to figure out. 


Long and pinched between bunkers, the green is not an easy target to find.


The last time I played the course the wind was directly opposite so I didn't experience the pattern of smothering the driver.  I think the front nine suffers a bit with #s 2, 4, 6 & 7 all being "lay-up" holes if downwind.  #5.     


A look back at the general front nine landscape from the 6th tee.


A very short par 5 downwind, the 6th is strengthened by the fairway bunkers and the broken land one must carry for the second.  All the trouble for the long approach is at the front of the green, just about where one's long second may land if having a go at the green in two.


The 7th offers yet another confusing landscape. 


#8   



More to follow.

[Mark Chaplin]

Has Trump overpriced for now when everyone says its going to be great in 5 years when the conditioning is up to scratch?

[Ally Mcintosh]

The conditioning is not bad, Mark, despite what those above might have you believe. The course will mature and become comfortable in its own skin a little more - that may lead to firmer conditions and slightly wider playing corridors. But its been built at an incredibly high-spec and opened with the grasses more or less fully grown in.

It is expensive, no doubt. Perhaps they could have charged less for the first couple of years but I don't know many golf courses that would try that approach. They didn't announce a "soft" opening. It is fully open. Therefore it charges full price.

[Sean_A]

The conditioning is not bad, Mark, despite what those above might have you believe. The course will mature and become comfortable in its own skin a little more - that may lead to firmer conditions and slightly wider playing corridors. But its been built at an incredibly high-spec and opened with the grasses more or less fully grown in.

It is expensive, no doubt. Perhaps they could have charged less for the first couple of years but I don't know many golf courses that would try that approach. They didn't announce a "soft" opening. It is fully open. Therefore it charges full price.

Ally

Trump was comfortably the worst conditioned and most expensive course we saw on the trip.  I wouldn't recommend anybody pay that rate now.  The fairways do not hold together for shots and the greens rolled at about 5.  In a word, if this were Muirfield or another top whack course people would be howling.  We couldn't hit the ball hard enough for long putts.  I would say a good percentage of the fun was taken out of the game because of the conditions.  While I am fully cognizant that the course is growing, the only conclusion one can draw is the conditions at the moment are poor.  Generally, I was seriously disappointed with the conditions of the greens on the trip.  My home course NEVER has greens rolling so slowly or bumpy even in the dead of winter.  Curiously, the best conditioned course was Carnoustie Burnside.  While not overly quick or terribly true, at least the greens meshed well with the fairways and were quite firm.  I was pleasantly surprised especially considering the green fee.    

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

The conditioning is not bad, Mark, despite what those above might have you believe. The course will mature and become comfortable in its own skin a little more - that may lead to firmer conditions and slightly wider playing corridors. But its been built at an incredibly high-spec and opened with the grasses more or less fully grown in.

It is expensive, no doubt. Perhaps they could have charged less for the first couple of years but I don't know many golf courses that would try that approach. They didn't announce a "soft" opening. It is fully open. Therefore it charges full price.

Ally

Trump was comfortably the worst conditioned and most expensive course we saw on the trip.  I wouldn't recommend anybody pay that rate now.  The fairways do not hold together for shots and the greens rolled at about 5.  In a word, if this were Muirfield or another top whack course people would be howling.  We couldn't hit the ball hard enough for long putts.  I would say a good percentage of the fun was taken out of the game because of the conditions.  While I am fully cognizant that the course is growing, the only conclusion one can draw is the conditions at the moment are poor.  Generally, I was seriously disappointed with the conditions of the greens on the trip.  My home course NEVER has greens rolling so slowly or bumpy even in the dead of winter.  Curiously, the best conditioned course was Carnoustie Burnside.  While not overly quick or terribly true, at least the greens meshed well with the fairways and were quite firm.  I was pleasantly surprised especially considering the green fee.    

Ciao

Sean - It must have deteriorated since my visit then.

My point really was that for a group that like to think we place "condition" way down on the list of important things regarding the quality of a golf course, we sure do seem to place a lot of emphasis on it.

That said, I tend to agree with your angle - at the full rate (which is already extortionate) and with no pre-warning about the course still maturing, then it might come as a bit of a surprise to some.

[Niall C]

Ally

It's perhaps fairer to say most folk tend to think of conditioning along side how much there paying. Even the cognescenti on this site can appreciate the architecture but at the same time object at poor value for money re the conditioning. FWIW when I played it with Mike Whittaker last year the overall conditioning was a long way short of top notch. The greens and surrounds were near flawless however the rest of the "short stuff" was diabolical, like playing of a sanded shag pile carpet. Didn't suit me at all, never got a chance to hit one of my towering one irons 220 yards into a stiff breeze. Very disappointing !

Niall

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Didn't suit me at all, never got a chance to hit one of my towering one irons 220 yards into a stiff breeze. Very disappointing !

Niall

You didn't play any of those at Silloth either !!   

[Mark Chaplin]

Swinley Forest have been reducing green fees by circa £50 (33%) due to 3 or 4 poor greens. It shows even premium clubs can acknowledge when things aren't 100% right for their customers.