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Jason Topp

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Effort to Promote Walking
« on: June 25, 2013, 11:55:06 AM »
I am a big fan of the Classic at Maddens and have found it a pleasant walk, even though it seems like a cartball course.  It will be interesting to see if this initiative works out well for the resort.

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jun/13/minn-resorts-initiative-promotes-walking/

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2013, 12:14:06 PM »
From the article, "Madden's is operating its own caddie program, and Hagberg said the resort rejected two of every three applicants. The caddies have to be adults and play to a 13 handicap or better. Beyond that, they have to be good company for guests. Hagberg said part of the training is a lengthy written test that covers everything from "who has the best steak in town to how long does it take to get to the airport."

Architectural editors need not apply.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2013, 12:32:36 PM »
The caddies have to...play to a 13 handicap or better.

This is, in a word, idiotic.

What's the average handicap of the Madden's Resort golfer? I'm guessing it's north of 13. Where does the owner un-earth his evidence that 13 or lower handicap golfers make better caddies than those 13+?

Were Sparky Anderson and Earl Weaver really good baseball players? Was Michael Jordan a better basketball coach than Greg Popovich?

Just dumb.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2013, 12:43:46 PM »
Phil, I disagree. A 13 is hardly a great player. Popovich played four years of varsity college basketball. He was certainly better than a 13 handicap basketball player. Sparky Anderson and Earl Weaver both played pro baseball, Anderson reaching the majors and Weaver reaching double-A. It's safe to say they were both plus-handicap baseball players.

If someone is caddying professionally, it's fair to ask them to have rudimentary course management skills along with the ability to read greens and give basic shotmaking advice when needed. You're right that the average player at the resort is probably worse than a 13, which to me means that a handicap cutoff of 13 for caddies is probably adequate.

This sounds like a good initiative overall. I really like the partnership with Anytime Fitness. It's good to hear a for-profit course at a semi-reasonable price point is promoting walking despite the lost cart fees.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2013, 12:52:46 PM »
Please, it's obvious that a great caddie does not need a low handicap, or for that matter, be an adult.  I'm shocked by the hypocrisy of Golfweek printing this article under the guise of promoting walking.  I can only guess that the author did not read the final product.

This whole thing smells like a con job to me.  Confuse the consumer with multiple rates and bogus rebates.  They can not be sincere.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 12:54:46 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2013, 12:57:38 PM »
I just returned from a trip to Pikewood National.  My caddie for 54 holes was about a 15-16 handicap.  He was taught well how to be a caddie and knew what it takes to be a good caddie.  He was outstanding.  To think he would be looked over because he works more than plays is silly.

Ken

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2013, 12:59:26 PM »
I did not consider the caddie piece of this as important at all.  It is a resort area and my guess is that caddie use will be light except for the Twin Cities country club crowd.

The piece that is interesting to me is a resort course charging a reduced fee if you walk.   Such an approach is pretty unusual.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2013, 01:27:42 PM »
I think this is a pretty cool initiative.   To me the caddies shouldn't even be part of the discussion. 

It will be really interesting to see how well the discounted pricing works for them.  The credit for walking is also an interesting concept.  I think that may even work in the favor of their merchandise store, as its a built-in discount for buying a shirt after a round.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2013, 01:34:12 PM »
Phil, I disagree. A 13 is hardly a great player. Popovich played four years of varsity college basketball. He was certainly better than a 13 handicap basketball player. Sparky Anderson and Earl Weaver both played pro baseball, Anderson reaching the majors and Weaver reaching double-A. It's safe to say they were both plus-handicap baseball players.

If someone is caddying professionally, it's fair to ask them to have rudimentary course management skills along with the ability to read greens and give basic shotmaking advice when needed. You're right that the average player at the resort is probably worse than a 13, which to me means that a handicap cutoff of 13 for caddies is probably adequate.

This sounds like a good initiative overall. I really like the partnership with Anytime Fitness. It's good to hear a for-profit course at a semi-reasonable price point is promoting walking despite the lost cart fees.

Jason:

A golfer with a handicap of 13 or better is in the upper quartile certainly, and maybe even the upper 10 percent, of all golfers playing the game today. Golfers with handicaps tend to vastly over-estimate the number of golfers who actually carry one; more than half of all golfers do not. Golfers at @ 13 represent about half of all players reporting scores, and those under 10 are less than a third.

That may not make them great golfers, but they are certainly among the best golfers playing today.

How that corresponds to helping a resort golfer around a course is beyond me.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2013, 01:56:39 PM »
If you honestly want to promote walking do like Kiawah Island and give the golfer a choice between a caddie or a cart at the same fee.  Not some $6 merchandise credit while a caddie is twice the cost of a cart before tip.

Aren't most cart fees ala carte?  The milers club is hilarious if not insulting.  You get a free golf ball for every round walked.

There was a time in my life, before I became enlightened, that I believed people carried their own bags at a resort because they were cheap.  This $6 incentive feeds into that stereotype.  I'm fighting the urge to call it genius.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2013, 02:22:25 PM »
I know all that, Phil. I just don't know why it's an unfair ask for a professional caddie to know how to play the game a bit. Personally I prefer Evans Scholar caddie programs, but can understand why a resort would go with adult, professional caddies. It's easy to imagine people who rarely take caddies thinking it's a bit awkward to have a 15 year old carrying for them. If a resort is hiring professional caddies, they have to have some way of measuring their ability to understand strategy and basic playing skills. I think a handicap requirement is a fair enough way to do that. It's obviously imperfect, but it's probably as good an option as any.

I'm sure there are some 20 handicappers who are great caddies. But in a random drawing, I like my odds better with a 5 and certainly don't begrudge a resort owner for making it a requirement that a player understand score posting and be in the top 50% of people who do so. Again, I just think a better player is more likely to give better advice on strategy and reading greens, if nothing else.

As for the initiative itself, it's obviously a bit half-hearted. I'm sure the course doesn't want to cut too much into their cart revenues, so it's not like they've made walking an excellent deal. But it's still not a bad thing, and as Josh mentioned, maybe the mileage credit will get more merchandise bought or something. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm more than happy to walk 6 miles a day for $300 at the end of a year. Getting a dollar per mile sounds great to me, though I'll bet it's more than a six mile walk around that course and I'll bet I can prove it at the end of a round too.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2013, 03:03:22 PM »
Jason:

The initiative doesn't bother me a bit; good luck to those involved. Anything to promote walking in the game generally gets my support.

But I'd look for "golf smarts," rather than golf handicaps, in assessing the worthiness of a caddy. I've known plenty of dumb golfers who break 80 regularly; they are just really talented. That doesn't necessarily make them better able to manage a resort golfer around 18 holes; in some cases, it might make it worse.

(Jordan was a lousy basketball coach because he simply didn't get that his players weren't as motivated or talented as him. It didn't help that Jordan was in the top .00000001 percent of motivated/talented athletes in the history of sports.)

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2013, 05:06:47 PM »
I just returned from a trip to Pikewood National.  My caddie for 54 holes was about a 15-16 handicap.  He was taught well how to be a caddie and knew what it takes to be a good caddie.  He was outstanding.  To think he would be looked over because he works more than plays is silly.

Ken

Was the esteemed owner there pushing his agenda driven by greed, hurt feelings and being outmaneuvered by more intelligent media professionals? ::) Sorry - had my fill of that guy.

Good to hear you had a nice experience. Too bad his ego will preclude the university golf team from using the facility when the start back up next year.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2013, 09:51:22 PM »
I just returned from a trip to Pikewood National.  My caddie for 54 holes was about a 15-16 handicap.  He was taught well how to be a caddie and knew what it takes to be a good caddie.  He was outstanding.  To think he would be looked over because he works more than plays is silly.

Ken

Was the esteemed owner there pushing his agenda driven by greed, hurt feelings and being outmaneuvered by more intelligent media professionals? ::) Sorry - had my fill of that guy.

Good to hear you had a nice experience. Too bad his ego will preclude the university golf team from using the facility when the start back up next year.

Greg,

I've never heard anything related to either of the owners.  The golf course experience was quite impressive.

Ken

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2013, 12:17:18 AM »
Phil, I disagree. A 13 is hardly a great player. Popovich played four years of varsity college basketball. He was certainly better than a 13 handicap basketball player. Sparky Anderson and Earl Weaver both played pro baseball, Anderson reaching the majors and Weaver reaching double-A. It's safe to say they were both plus-handicap baseball players.

If someone is caddying professionally, it's fair to ask them to have rudimentary course management skills along with the ability to read greens and give basic shotmaking advice when needed. You're right that the average player at the resort is probably worse than a 13, which to me means that a handicap cutoff of 13 for caddies is probably adequate.

This sounds like a good initiative overall. I really like the partnership with Anytime Fitness. It's good to hear a for-profit course at a semi-reasonable price point is promoting walking despite the lost cart fees.

Jason:

A golfer with a handicap of 13 or better is in the upper quartile certainly, and maybe even the upper 10 percent, of all golfers playing the game today. Golfers with handicaps tend to vastly over-estimate the number of golfers who actually carry one; more than half of all golfers do not. Golfers at @ 13 represent about half of all players reporting scores, and those under 10 are less than a third.

That may not make them great golfers, but they are certainly among the best golfers playing today.

How that corresponds to helping a resort golfer around a course is beyond me.

Phil, that might be true of all golfers, but among with GHIN. index 13 is about dead center in the distribution.

Among women with an index it is in the to 10 percent.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

BCowan

Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2015, 07:08:33 PM »
I am a big fan of the Classic at Maddens and have found it a pleasant walk, even though it seems like a cartball course.  It will be interesting to see if this initiative works out well for the resort.

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jun/13/minn-resorts-initiative-promotes-walking/

Jason,

  Nice post, did you find out how the initiative worked out?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2015, 07:28:43 PM »
I am a big fan of the Classic at Maddens and have found it a pleasant walk, even though it seems like a cartball course.  It will be interesting to see if this initiative works out well for the resort.

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jun/13/minn-resorts-initiative-promotes-walking/

Jason,

  Nice post, did you find out how the initiative worked out?

there were never any caddies available---they were all out practicing
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2015, 09:23:32 PM »
I just returned from a trip to Pikewood National.  My caddie for 54 holes was about a 15-16 handicap.  He was taught well how to be a caddie and knew what it takes to be a good caddie.  He was outstanding.  To think he would be looked over because he works more than plays is silly.

Ken

Was the esteemed owner there pushing his agenda driven by greed, hurt feelings and being outmaneuvered by more intelligent media professionals? ::) Sorry - had my fill of that guy.

Good to hear you had a nice experience. Too bad his ego will preclude the university golf team from using the facility when the start back up next year.

Greg,

I've never heard anything related to either of the owners.  The golf course experience was quite impressive.

Ken

Ken, see this tread, in which Greg and I go back and forth about Raese and Pikewood.

 http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49151.0.html       I expect John Raese's interference may have had something to do with Oliver Luck's leaving the A.D. position at WVU.  Greg would know more about that than I would.  

Carl


Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2015, 10:23:51 PM »
I am a big fan of the Classic at Maddens and have found it a pleasant walk, even though it seems like a cartball course.  It will be interesting to see if this initiative works out well for the resort.

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jun/13/minn-resorts-initiative-promotes-walking/

Jason,

  Nice post, did you find out how the initiative worked out?

I went up there twice last summer and there were more people walking than is normally the case at the course.  So it went from an entirely cart ball course to one with a percentage of play walking.  I do not know how their numbers turned out.

BCowan

Re: Effort to Promote Walking
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2015, 11:04:24 PM »
Jason,

   great news and nice find.  I bet their annual caddy tournament is rather competitive. 

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Effort to Promote Walking New
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2015, 02:49:12 PM »
http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Bandon&state=OR&site=MFR&textField1=43.1192&textField2=-124.407&e=0

 Pictures look more omenous than the daily #'s.


  Hats off for the effort in Minnysoda.  . . . and Roy Harper . . .   and Pete Galea of Pajaro for Fast Play Wednesday effort. 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 04:07:55 PM by Norbert P »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

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