News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2013, 09:18:10 AM »
Say what you will about the set up (I know I haven't been all that complimentary of it), but to me, this is the most interesting I've watched in a thousand years. Kudos to the USGA and Merion Golf Club!

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2013, 10:12:41 AM »
I have been critical of Davis and the USGA set-up squad in the past, but I have no problem with what they've done at Merion.  After three full days on site, I came away with the impression that Merion, as it sits today, is perhaps the finest golf course I've set foot on.  I saw plenty of deft pitches from short-side rough and almost invariably players were able to advance the ball 150 yards back into the fairway when needed - a legitimate half-stroke penalty.  From my spot on the back row of the bleachers behind the 14th green, I'd say the majority of players bailing out right off the 15th tee hit the green with their second shots and that fairway is among the widest on the course IF one lays back slightly off the tee.  Strategy at its finest.  

The movement in the greens is astonishing and much under-estimated.  The movement, the fast speeds and the players' unfamiliarity with pin locations led to the  most missed putts than I've ever seen.  Watch closely today and tomorrow - you will be astonished at how many putts from 20 feet in are badly missed. That, and there are so few dead straight opportunities for 30 foot bombs - there just won't be any.

With the exception of the shifting of the 2nd fairway, I don't believe any criticism is warranted.    The golf course is brilliant, and the set-up reasonable.

Bogey

Great post and I think it deserves an extra read or two for some who might have missed it.

Interesting first hand observations from someone who wasn't just watching on TV and doesn't have an axe to grind.

It seems that the rough is playable for most of these guys, not just hack it out sideways. An effective half stroke penalty (and in many cases no real penalty at all) as Mike points out.

Sure, it's easy to lament and whine about the rough alterations...but obviously it's only temporary and I love watching these guys grimace.

I can't imagine a better Open venue or set up.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2013, 10:26:07 AM »
Players happy.  Check.
USGA happy. Check.
Merion membership happy. Check.
General public happy. Check.
Architecture nerds that want options and width because they want to play some theoretical angles that they think the architect intended 100 years ago with hickories and gutta percha balls. Not happy.

Can't please everybody but this is a home run.


Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2013, 11:41:02 AM »
Players happy.  Check.
USGA happy. Check.
Merion membership happy. Check.
General public happy. Check.
Architecture nerds that want options and width because they want to play some theoretical angles that they think the architect intended 100 years ago with hickories and gutta percha balls. Not happy.

Can't please everybody but this is a home run.



Stated both succinctly and accurately. Thanks Sean. :)

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2013, 11:55:35 AM »
Players happy.  Check.
USGA happy. Check.
Merion membership happy. Check.
General public happy. Check.
Architecture nerds that want options and width because they want to play some theoretical angles that they think the architect intended 100 years ago with hickories and gutta percha balls. Not happy.

Can't please everybody but this is a home run.



Stated both succinctly and accurately. Thanks Sean. :)

The reality is  if that if Merionhad wide fairways and short rough with original tees the same people would be complaining about technology and how it has ruined the game when 20 under par wins.

Can't win either way.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2013, 04:37:50 PM »
I think Sean Arblehas it correct in this quote:

But the only great use of OOB I know of is when OOB is hard on the playing corridor.

Those complaining about the close out of bounds should know that the original course at Merion utilized Out of Bounds at Merion throughout the course.  But it was used to enhance the course from a strategic perspective. As I said above, No. 15 always had tight OB.   No. 6 (Merion's "Road Hole") required a drive over a corner of a corn lot, with the players biting off as much as they could to get closer and a better angle to the green.  The 7th featured a "bottleneck" created by the groundslope  and the Out of Bounds.  The hole required players to play up against the OB and into the "bottleneck" in order to secure the best angle of approach under the harder conditions of that era. There were other examples as well.

So I have no issues with the OB right on the edge of the fairways, and don't consider it a modern manipulation.   What I do question, however, is that with the drastically narrower fairways, it seems to be more penal than stragetic at this point.  No. 2 is a good example.   Pushing the fairway next to the out of bounds makes sense, but I am not so sure about combining this with the trees and the narrow fairway.

Here are a few pictures of No. 7 showing how close the OB was to the landing area on that hole.   The first is Chick Evans in 1916.  The second is Jones circa 1930.  Look at where Jones appears to be aiming.




__________________________________________________________


Sean Leary

The reality is  if that if Merionhad wide fairways and short rough with original tees the same people would be complaining about technology and how it has ruined the game when 20 under par wins.

Can't win either way.

As Geoff Shackelford noted the other day, the indictment of the equipment is in the setup itself, not in the final score.

I am very much enjoying watching the tournament. Merion is a great course and it's greens are fantastic, and the viewing has been compelling.  But as good as this tournament is, the golf course seems better than the way it is being presented.

Do you think you wouldn't be enjoying the coverage if they had gone with a less penal, slightly wider setup?

___________________________________

Speaking of manipulating the course to try to inflate the scoring . . . I sure hope that person who took a driver to the head while standing near the par three third hole is alright.  
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 04:43:51 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2013, 10:21:33 PM »
David,
Turns out that Sara Clark, the girl that was hit, took it in the elbow.  Not surprisingly, a hit from a pro anywhere can knock you on your tail, which is exactly what happened.  She was a bit queasy, and they took here to first aid.  Iced the elbow, and she was later released.   Good news...

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2013, 12:49:31 AM »
Good to hear she is okay.  I was under the mistaken impression that the ball had hit her in the head. Thanks.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2013, 03:19:44 AM »

I stand corrected about the 18th at TOC -- although there's so much bail-out room to the left that even Ian Baker-Finch at his worst couldn't have gotten in trouble in that direction. That certainly doesn't hold true for going right right on 15 at Merion.

Rick, I'm pretty sure that I B-F went OB both right and left on 18 when he last played St. Andrews in the Open.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Mike Sweeney

Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2013, 09:56:47 PM »
I was under the mistaken impression that the ball had hit her in the head. Thanks.

Wait a second. You were WRONG about an event that happened at Merion Golf Club in June of 2013, but you have been right about every event that happened at Merion in the early 1900's?

Please explain.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 09:59:19 PM by Mike Sweeney »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2013, 10:47:45 PM »
For those commenting on the tight out of bounds on the 15th, here is a photo from the 1930 Amateur.  The fairway is very tight to the road on both the 15th and on the 14th.    But the fairways were wider, and the angle on the 15th less severe; you can follow back the worn out path back to the approximate tee. (Also note the tee between the 14th green and the road.)




Check out the view of the swale short of the 17th green in upper left.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2013, 01:36:08 PM »
Here is another old photo showing more fairways right to to the out of bounds at Merion.  



The 7th and the 8th both had the out of bounds right up to the edge of the fairway, and both originally offered a strategic advantage to the golfer who successfully played along side the out of bounds stakes.   (The original green on the 8th was located to the left of the current green, and it was canted from left to right and from front to back, so that one had to play away from the direct line and toward the out of bounds in order to get in the best position for a successful approach.  The green was moved and rebuilt with a back to front slant - Ran compared the green in another thread to a catchers mitt - so that the original strategic intent was somewhat muzzled.)

Also visible is the 6th which was modeled after the Road Hole. The hole required play over a corner of out of bounds, and by this point part of the out of bounds corner had been replaced with a large bunker.  Nonetheless the drive still required one to cut off as much of the out of bounds as one dared to get in the best position to avoid difficult bunker guarding the left front corner of the plateaued green.  

Also visible is the 2nd with out of bounds along Ardmore.  Trees had already been planted along the out of bounds, and some space existed between fairway landing area and the out of bounds.  

If there has been "manipulation" at Merion, it hasn't been through the use of the out of bounds areas close to the fairways.  But look at the widths of the fairways in these photos!   Out of bounds generally only works as a strategic feature if the golfer has the opportunity to play way from it to his/her disadvantage.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2013, 02:46:26 PM »
David, stunning aerials.  Thank you.

I thought the fairway cut left of the 14th green might be a gimmick but it is evident in the photograph.  Today's green is more L-shaped, however with a narrow front section due to the addition a greenside mound hard against the front-left side.  The extension of the 14th fairway to Golf House Road is more interesting than today's hay that effectively turns the hole into a more dramatic dogleg.

As for the 15th fairway, width notwithstanding the 2013 version might actually be easier as the now three fairway bunkers are farther up the hole, leaving a very wide driving area for players willing to lay back from the tee. The first right-hand fairway bunker in the 1930 aerial pinches that option a little tighter.

Arguably the architecture of the 7th hole was compromised by immediately contiguous housing that is missing in the 1930 aerial where residences are set back from the boundary. The need to grow trees to protect the newer residences narrowed the hole and eliminated the option of driving longer down the right side of that fairway.  Unfortunately, the net result is that there is only one real option off the tee - a 210 yards shot to a level lie.

Wonderful aerials.  Let's see more.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Percival

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2013, 10:18:42 PM »
When it comes to fwy widths, especially in the north, u cant just change mowing patterns. Fwys are usually bent and rough is rye or bluegrass. The two are not interchangeable. So, to narrow, sod in blue. To widen, sod out bent. Only if u have the same grass (i.e. Bermuda) for fwys and rough can you simply change mowing patterns. Lots of manpower and bucks for those sod tasks.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "manipulated" (?)
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2013, 12:20:35 AM »
Mike, The aerials are from the Hagley Digital Collection. 

As for the 15th fairway, width notwithstanding the 2013 version might actually be easier as the now three fairway bunkers are farther up the hole, leaving a very wide driving area for players willing to lay back from the tee. The first right-hand fairway bunker in the 1930 aerial pinches that option a little tighter.

The 15th has been lengthened so much (and the angle changed) that it is difficult to even draw a valid comparison.  The tee in 1930 was about 80 yards in front of the tee in 2013.   In 1930, the bunker was only about 160-170 to carry so playing short off the tee wasn't really a legitimate option for better players.  Also, laying up short would have left an approx. 190 second shot, which was quite long with the old equipment.  In short, the carry was the easier and much less risky play, and the only way to get a mid-iron to the tricky green. Nowadays, leaving 190-200 yard shot is hardly a 6 iron for some of those guys.

I guess we may be saying the same thing, except that now there is an option to play short, where as then I don't think there was much of an option.

Quote
Arguably the architecture of the 7th hole was compromised by immediately contiguous housing that is missing in the 1930 aerial where residences are set back from the boundary. The need to grow trees to protect the newer residences narrowed the hole and eliminated the option of driving longer down the right side of that fairway.  Unfortunately, the net result is that there is only one real option off the tee - a 210 yards shot to a level lie.

I agree.  It seems to be much less interesting hole than it once was, especially now that the tee shot is hardly a mid-iron for these guys.  As for the trees, I am not even sure if they are on Merion's property.  

One of the the reason the holes (and OB) on the North Side of Ardmore still work so well is that the road and front yards provide a bit of a buffer.  This was actually a negotiated point in the original agreement with the development company --the adjacent houses had to be facing the course, thus they had to be across Golf House Rd. (The developer did not control the land surrounding the course south of Ardmore Ave.)  
_____________________________________________

John Percival.

That is a very good point.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)