Raise the goal to 11' or rollback the ball, what's the difference?

[John Kavanaugh]

As basketball players got bigger and stronger it was often proposed to raise the goal to 11'. Now that golfers are bigger and stronger it is being proposed to roll back the ball. I think both are terrible ideas. Note:  When will the critics of the modern game of golf accept that "records are made to be broken"?

We all know that this Green dude isn't the greatest shooter of all time.  Doesn't mean he can't hold the record. Let it go.

[Dan Herrmann]

John - I kind of agree with you - In every sport, players have gotten stronger, faster, smarter, and overall more skilled.

I was watching the 1984 Open Championship tonight, and today's swings are so much better.  Most of the players in '84 still had the "Noonan" reverse-C where today's golfers are chiseled with scientifically based swings.

Getting to John's basketball analogy, I'd like to compare women's basketball to where it was 50 years ago.  50 years ago, it was a 6-woman game with 3 players on each side of the division line (3 offense, 3 defense).  Players could not cross that division line.  Today, women's basketball is an Olympic sport (although it's time for them to use a regulation size golf ball).

[Ross Tuddenham]

I don't follow basket ball but maybe massively high scoring basketball is fun to watch and/or fun to play.

I am not sure the same can be said about golf when players obtain many birdies from wedge approaches.  Does bombing past many of the architectural features of a course interest you?  If so why post on a site about golf course architecture.

There is surely a depth to golf gained from tackling the terrain that could be lost if ball technology gets out of hand?

[Bryan Icenhower]

is the issue the athletes or the equipment?
how has the actual basketball changed?  The rim?
The baseball? the bat?
the football? the goal posts?

[John Kavanaugh]

Ross,

I have yet to play a course where when you hit over one architectural feature you don't find another.

[John Kavanaugh]

is the issue the athletes or the equipment?
how has the actual basketball changed?  The rim?
The baseball? the bat?
the football? the goal posts?

Bryan,

The shoes make a world of difference. As much as a golf ball if you played back in the seventies. The gym floors, backboards and breakaway rims are noticeable also. Note: I'm old and remember seeing final fours in the Checkerdome.

[Patrick_Mucci]

As basketball players got bigger and stronger it was often proposed to raise the goal to 11'. Now that golfers are bigger and stronger it is being proposed to roll back the ball. I think both are terrible ideas. Note:  When will the critics of the modern game of golf accept that "records are made


JakaB,

Basketball took the circuitous route and created a 3 point line to take play further away from the basket, negating big man play from the basket.to be broken"?

We all know that this Green dude isn't the greatest shooter of all time.  Doesn't mean he can't hold the record. Let it go.

[Dan Herrmann]

John - amen.

I worked at Nike back when Air Jordan 1 was introduced (I still have a pair!).   The shoes weren't much beyond a leather version of Converse Chuck Taylors.  Today's shoes are space-age compared to 1985.

The athletes are a lot better today too.  I love Doctor J, but let's be real - LeBron James would be a world-class athlete in anything he put his heart to.

Today's golfers are SO much better top-to-bottom than 30 years ago. 

[John Kavanaugh]

As basketball players got bigger and stronger it was often proposed to raise the goal to 11'. Now that golfers are bigger and stronger it is being proposed to roll back the ball. I think both are terrible ideas. Note:  When will the critics of the modern game of golf accept that "records are made


JakaB,

Basketball took the circuitous route and created a 3 point line to take play further away from the basket, negating big man play from the basket.to be broken"?

We all know that this Green dude isn't the greatest shooter of all time.  Doesn't mean he can't hold the record. Let it go.

That is true much like we have back tees for different level of play the three point line is further back at each level. Note:  I think the three point line is a failure. I do however support the wider foul lane and goal tending.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Ross,

I have yet to play a course where when you hit over one architectural feature you don't find another.

So it doesn't bother you that you can hit it out the toe with a driver and clear a bunker that would have required a solid strike even 20 years ago? It is not always the ultimate distance you can hit the modern ball/club combo but the difference in reward for solid and not so solid strikes.

Even if you are clearing one architectural feature for another these days maybe only the better strikes were meant to be rewarded with the advanced position which could provide a better stance or view of the green?

[Mike Sweeney]

As basketball players got bigger and stronger it was often proposed to raise the goal to 11'. Now that golfers are bigger and stronger it is being proposed to roll back the ball. I think both are terrible ideas. Note:  When will the critics of the modern game of golf accept that "records are made to be broken"?

We all know that this Green dude isn't the greatest shooter of all time.  Doesn't mean he can't hold the record. Let it go.

I agree for the most part, with a couple of points to add:

1. Since those days of 11 foot basket talk, the NBA has actually gotten smaller with only 1 active player 7'3" or taller:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_players_in_National_Basketball_Association_history

Look at Duncan vs Bosh tonight, both at 6'11".

2. The three point shot has become a huge part of college and pro basketball, and the dominant center is hard to find these days aka Kareem.

3. Merion's fairways were cut at the old school length of 1/2 inch so you did not see the huge first bounce, and yes the course was soft from rain. Even the short 4's seemed to play long.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/6/12/genuinely-retro-merions-half-inch-fairway-cut.html

4. Technically speaking, Artis Gilmore is the all time shooting leader: 

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersFGPQuery.html?topic=4&stat=4

PS - When are you opening the Doak course?

[Phil McDade]

Today's golfers are SO much better top-to-bottom than 30 years ago.  

Then why  -- with a certain feline-named exception -- aren't they any better at winning the tournaments that really matter?

[John Kavanaugh]

Ross,

I have yet to play a course where when you hit over one architectural feature you don't find another.

So it doesn't bother you that you can hit it out the toe with a driver and clear a bunker that would have required a solid strike even 20 years ago? It is not always the ultimate distance you can hit the modern ball/club combo but the difference in reward for solid and not so solid strikes.

Even if you are clearing one architectural feature for another these days maybe only the better strikes were meant to be rewarded with the advanced position which could provide a better stance or view of the green?

Ross,

I am only 53 years old and can't drive four par fours at my home course that I could drive in 1976.  Your points make no sense to me or the other golfers in the world who aren't getting any better.  My handicap is 8 shots worse to boot.

[John Kavanaugh]

As basketball players got bigger and stronger it was often proposed to raise the goal to 11'. Now that golfers are bigger and stronger it is being proposed to roll back the ball. I think both are terrible ideas. Note:  When will the critics of the modern game of golf accept that "records are made to be broken"?

We all know that this Green dude isn't the greatest shooter of all time.  Doesn't mean he can't hold the record. Let it go.

I agree for the most part, with a couple of points to add:

1. Since those days of 11 foot basket talk, the NBA has actually gotten smaller with only 1 active player 7'3" or taller:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_players_in_National_Basketball_Association_history

Look at Duncan vs Bosh tonight, both at 6'11".

2. The three point shot has become a huge part of college and pro basketball, and the dominant center is hard to find these days aka Kareem.

3. Merion's fairways were cut at the old school length of 1/2 inch so you did not see the huge first bounce, and yes the course was soft from rain. Even the short 4's seemed to play long.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2013/6/12/genuinely-retro-merions-half-inch-fairway-cut.html

4. Technically speaking, Artis Gilmore is the all time shooting leader: 

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersFGPQuery.html?topic=4&stat=4

PS - When are you opening the Doak course?

As I said, the three point line has failed in its attempt to improve the game.

[Bryan Icenhower]

Agreed, the shoes certainly have changed, as have the clothing.  All sports have that in common, just as they have in common that athletes are bigger, stronger with much greater insight into what can be tweaked with their own bodies to make themselves better. 

Only some sports have drastic change in the equipment used to play the sport (skiing comes to mind).

[Ross Tuddenham]

Ross,

I have yet to play a course where when you hit over one architectural feature you don't find another.

So it doesn't bother you that you can hit it out the toe with a driver and clear a bunker that would have required a solid strike even 20 years ago? It is not always the ultimate distance you can hit the modern ball/club combo but the difference in reward for solid and not so solid strikes.

Even if you are clearing one architectural feature for another these days maybe only the better strikes were meant to be rewarded with the advanced position which could provide a better stance or view of the green?

Ross,

I am only 53 years old and can't drive four par fours at my home course that I could drive in 1976.  Your points make no sense to me or the other golfers in the world who aren't getting any better.  My handicap is 8 shots worse to boot.

Sounds like you need to visit your pro.  I know many players of your age who are better now than they ever were.

Was your course a lot faster and firmer in 1976?

What happened when you hit it out the toe of the driver in 76?

[David Harshbarger]

Ross,

I have yet to play a course where when you hit over one architectural feature you don't find another.

So it doesn't bother you that you can hit it out the toe with a driver and clear a bunker that would have required a solid strike even 20 years ago? It is not always the ultimate distance you can hit the modern ball/club combo but the difference in reward for solid and not so solid strikes.

Even if you are clearing one architectural feature for another these days maybe only the better strikes were meant to be rewarded with the advanced position which could provide a better stance or view of the green?

Ross, that's a perfect restatement of the argument that I believe MacKenzie made that distance should be rewarded, but only when coupled with accuracy.  If the equipment provides both, is that negating the separation in skill the architecture accentuates?

[John Kirk]

Danny Green may not be the greatest three point shooter in history, but these two teams are among the best shooting teams I have ever seen.  I looked it up the other day.  The 1985-86 Boston Celtics had 110 3-point baskets in the regular season.  This year's Miami Heat had 717.

Modern players are quicker, smaller and more skilled than a generation ago.  That's partly due to the changing rules and rule interpretations.  I think both of these teams could play with the Laker and Celtic teams of the eighties.

Finally, Tim Duncan has 25 points in the first half tonight, striving for his fifth championship.  He is something else.  The Big Fundamentals.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ross,

We didn't have irrigation in 76 or modern turf. Lots of people didn't.  I don't remember any wet courses back in the day.

[John Kavanaugh]

Danny Green may not be the greatest three point shooter in history, but these two teams are among the best shooting teams I have ever seen.  I looked it up the other day.  The 1985-86 Boston Celtics had 110 3-point baskets in the regular season.  This year's Miami Heat had 717.

Modern players are quicker, smaller and more skilled than a generation ago.  That's partly due to the changing rules and rule interpretations.  I think both of these teams could play with the Laker and Celtic teams of the eighties.

Finally, Tim Duncan has 25 points in the first half tonight, striving for his fifth championship.  He is something else.  The Big Fundamentals.

John,

Don't you love it. Seeing Duncan tonight is like watching Couples, Watson and Els having great days on the course. Changing the rules to prevent the young from over achieving only punishes the old.

[John Kirk]

John,

It's a very hard fought game tonight.  Very enjoyable to watch.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

It's a very hard fought game tonight.  Very enjoyable to watch.

John,

I don't know how often you still shoot some hoops but can't imagine that you would want to play with a ball or at a goal different than what you are watching tonight.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't like bifurcation.  I don't like it deep in my gut and I don't know why but when I see old men grasp at greatness it makes me feel good.  You can't have a piece if you don't crave the pie.

[John Kavanaugh]

This is a great game and series because the NBA and its fans are not scared that the players are the stars. Mike Davis could learn a thing or two from David Stern. Tiger proofing has turned into fun proofing.

[John Kirk]

Agree with all three previous comments.  I believe a 10' basket height is sacred like 90' between bases in baseball.

Look at LeBron James will his team back into the game!