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Mac Plumart

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Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« on: June 18, 2013, 11:13:25 AM »
I taped the Trevino vs. Nicklaus 1971 US Open played at Merion when it re-aired on Golf Channel and I taped the 2013 US Open.  WOW!!!  What a difference. 

I think in hindsight, I would say that Merion was great despite the set up in this years US Open.  Seeing these two different courses, and make no mistake they were different, I think the governing bodies of the game need to really have a come to grips meeting very soon.  It is beyond sensibility to think that the USGA had to go to the lengths it did in 2013 to test the best at such a well designed golf course.  Something is amiss.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2013, 01:50:56 PM »
Yeah, something's amiss. Maybe they'll address it. WHILE WE'RE YOUNG.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jim Sherma

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2013, 02:36:52 PM »
Mac - very well stated. I wonder what the internal discussions really are when the powers that be within the USGA discuss topics around distance and equipment and how they impact the grounds that we play on.

Maybe the problem is simply the size of the available budget. If the USGA had a minimal budget to impact the course with maybe they would simply grow the rough up and roll the greens with some old barrels filled with water or sand.

Dan Moore

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2013, 03:52:37 PM »
I saved the 1971 Show too and want to go back and watch it again in comparison.  The rough was pretty nasty in '71 as well and the balls simply did not fly nearly as straight as they do today.  I doubt the data exists but it would be very interesting to compare Fairways Hit, GIR and putting stats comparing 1971 to 2013. I'd also be interested in seeing how pin positions compare then to now as well. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Tom_Doak

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2013, 04:08:21 PM »
Mac:

Fundamentally, the set-up in 1971 was the same as in 2013 ... they turned up the screws as much as they knew how at the time, topdressing the greens to get them as hard as a rock, and growing out the rough.

Yes, the course is much different now than it was then.  But, so is golf.  That's the problem.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2013, 05:03:57 PM »
Mac,

I think Tom Doak hit the nail on the head.

In their respective time frames, the USGA did what they had to do to present a test commensurate with the abilities of the field.

But, this is nothing new.

Local golf courses have gone through the same metamorphasis.

Added length
Narrower fairways
More difficult rough
Faster greens
Softened greens

The Open merely brings all of these changes to our attention once a year vis a vis the exercise of defending par.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2013, 05:46:25 PM »
Right. Defending par.  Against golfers armed with ludicrous technological weapons. How far is too far?  Sure seems like we are over the line. Subtle features become blatant penal aspects of the course.  Keep it up and what is next for green speeds and rough length?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

JESII

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2013, 06:43:12 PM »
Mac, or anyone,

Can you give specifics that you noticed as significant differences from 1971? I've seen plenty of the highlights from that event and watched plenty of this one but couldn't provide an example of a dramatic negative change.

This is not to say I agree with the fairway lines...I'm on the record as saying wall to wall fairway would make the course better, more difficult and mindblowing.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2013, 06:53:08 PM »
Jim, I don't think it is the height of the rough, but the "quality" of the rough. It might be the difference in television equipment used in 1971, but I think the rough was FAR less plush back then. I played Merion last year and the rough was SO thick. I imagine that Merion, like most clubs, spend more time irrigating and maybe even fertilizing rough now versus 1971.

Funny story. I played the quarry hole using the ladies fairway by accident! Faded my tee ball way right. Tried to play a full shot that got sent way right, ended up on the 15th tee, which I did not even realize was there...I had a beautiful lie on the tee and just missed getting up and down!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 06:56:35 PM by Bill Brightly »

JESII

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 07:39:44 PM »
Bill,

I agree that conditions across the board are light years different. One clear indicator was Nicklaus' approach to the 72nd green versus Justin Rose's.

If anyone has both on DVR...can you confirm that Rose's approach came into the green no more hot than Nicklaus'? Not sure if that makes sense, but I think the speed of the greens is the single reason Rose's ball didn't stop about where Nicklaus' did and in reality it went 30 or 40 feet further.


Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 09:18:24 PM »
Bill,

I agree that conditions across the board are light years different. One clear indicator was Nicklaus' approach to the 72nd green versus Justin Rose's.

If anyone has both on DVR...can you confirm that Rose's approach came into the green no more hot than Nicklaus'? Not sure if that makes sense, but I think the speed of the greens is the single reason Rose's ball didn't stop about where Nicklaus' did and in reality it went 30 or 40 feet further.


Very true the green speeds were different, attended both. However like my hair things are cut closer now.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2013, 09:41:22 PM »
A slightly different cant on Mac's great question.  Did anybody notice the tree removal?  #17 in '71 looked like an arboretum!

Bryan Icenhower

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 09:52:03 PM »
the difference in the trees is what struck me the most. 

I agree, think Nicklaus' shot came in just about as hot, yet stopped 14' short of the hole.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2013, 11:39:48 PM »
A slightly different cant on Mac's great question.  Did anybody notice the tree removal?  #17 in '71 looked like an arboretum!

Go to HistoricAerials.com if you really want to see how the course evolved from 1948 to 2010.

It's eye opening.



Bryan Icenhower

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2013, 07:55:42 AM »
18th from Sunday in 1971

Bill Brightly

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2013, 08:17:19 AM »
Here is a look back from the 12th green. I think you can see the new rough sod added on the left side of the ideal landing area (right side from the tee.)



View just short of landing zone. Obviously, the powers that be wanted to encourage a safer, shorter lay up. I really have no problem with doingthis for the pros.

 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:19:53 AM by Bill Brightly »

Ted Sturges

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2013, 02:32:01 PM »
Mac,

Very interesting thread.

Whether it is trees, fairway mow lines, height of cut (for rough, closely mown areas as well as the greens) or architectural changes, the bottom line is that courses "evolve". Only in the rarest of situations would a course stay the same for decades.  Yes, Merion's course is a lot different today than it was in the previous Opens held there.

What is controllable however, are the changes in equipment.  The golf ball is ridiculous.  Drivers have come too far as well.  So what do the powers that be at the USGA do?....they draw the biggest line in the sand that they ever have on anything over anchoring one's putter.  Huh????

It's like they haven't been paying attention to anything.  I think you can make decent arguments for both sides of the putter anchoring issue...I just think it's not even close to the most important battle the blue jackets should be picking.

TS

Bryan Icenhower

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2013, 02:39:31 PM »
Mac,

Very interesting thread.

Whether it is trees, fairway mow lines, height of cut (for rough, closely mown areas as well as the greens) or architectural changes, the bottom line is that courses "evolve". Only in the rarest of situations would a course stay the same for decades.  Yes, Merion's course is a lot different today than it was in the previous Opens held there.

What is controllable however, are the changes in equipment.  The golf ball is ridiculous.  Drivers have come too far as well.  So what do the powers that be at the USGA do?....they draw the biggest line in the sand that they ever have on anything over anchoring one's putter.  Huh????

It's like they haven't been paying attention to anything.  I think you can make decent arguments for both sides of the putter anchoring issue...I just think it's not even close to the most important battle the blue jackets should be picking.

TS

Couldn't agree more.  When there is a fire, you don't put it out by shooting the water at the smoke.

JESII

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2013, 02:43:27 PM »
Whoever said it was their biggest issue?

That it sailed through so easily indicates that it wasn't.



To the rollback world, how do you expect it to impact you specifically?

Brent Hutto

Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2013, 02:55:47 PM »
I'm not in the "rollback world" although I feel I am aware of certain negative implications of today's ball-flight distance.

For me, specifically it comes down to playing my home course 100-150 times a year and having to decide how to trade off teeing it forward versus not being able to reach several greens per round in regulation (both Par 4's and even one Par 5 that is not reachable in three strokes when I play back).

As it stands now I can reach every green in regulation with no more than a solid (average to slightly above average distance) drive and a solid 5-wood playing the course at about 5,750 yards. Move it back to 6,200 yards and at least two Par 4's and one Par 5 become layup hole. Go back to 6,500 and I'm laying up on half the holes on the course.

If the ball I play were rolled back 15-20% then I'd have to play at maybe 5,250 yards to reach most greens and all the way up at 4,800 to reach them all. I can only imagine how that would play out when I'm 62 or 72 years old instead of 52 or for that matter how it would play out on a 45F day with wintry wet fairways plus wind. At some point, I'd be moving up so far that the course ceases to have any meaningful features remaining from its original 1960 design which (if I understand correctly) was with the expectation of most play being from tees a bit over 6,000 yards.

That said I would rather play a rolled back ball than have a fundamental disconnect in the rules for "them" and "me" (for some values of "them" and "me"). At most I would be OK with the PGA Tour imposing a Condition of Competition that removes certain models of golf ball from play in their events. At most. Bifurcation would be the most fundamental change in the Rules of Golf that has occurred in Pat Mucci's lifetime, if not longer.

Ted Sturges

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2013, 03:00:24 PM »
Whoever said it was their biggest issue?

That it sailed through so easily indicates that it wasn't.



To the rollback world, how do you expect it to impact you specifically?

Who said it sailed through easily?   And...it ain't over yet.  What if the PGA Tour decides to adopt their own anchoring rule?  

If you label me as one of the "rollback world", my solution would  be to not roll back anything for non-competition golf.  Let the recreational player enjoy the game with his hot golf ball, huge driver, and anchor his putter if he wishes...that will ATTRACT people to the game, not run them off.  I would then suggest a "tour ball", a "competition ball", a set of approved equipment specs that must be met for tour and/or tournament golf.  

So...it wouldn't impact me specifically at all (I play for fun and don't play tour or tournament golf).  But it would stop the madness of trying to build 520 yard par 4's, 280 yard par 3's, 8200 yard courses, 7 iron's that go 210...rendering wonderful golf courses like Merion obsolete without making drastic changes to the outstanding architecture already in place there.

TS
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 03:16:15 PM by Ted Sturges »

JESII

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2013, 05:59:17 PM »
Ted,

I don't label anybody as being in the rollback world, I leave it simply to those responding to the question...

Seriously, wouldn't the easiest thing be to just leave the courses alone and let the players shoot lower scores?

Least expensive, least controversial, most unified way of moving forward...

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2013, 06:05:46 PM »

View just short of landing zone. Obviously, the powers that be wanted to encourage a safer, shorter lay up. I really have no problem with doingthis for the pros.

 

Just for the record, I saw 0% hit to that area and 100% take it right over the bunkers / challenge the bunkers.
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JMEvensky

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Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2013, 06:16:19 PM »


That said I would rather play a rolled back ball than have a fundamental disconnect in the rules for "them" and "me" (for some values of "them" and "me"). At most I would be OK with the PGA Tour imposing a Condition of Competition that removes certain models of golf ball from play in their events. At most. Bifurcation would be the most fundamental change in the Rules of Golf that has occurred in Pat Mucci's lifetime, if not longer.


I'm the same way--you just stated it more coherently than I could.

Do you think we're in the majority or minority?

PS--there is nothing longer than Mucci's lifetime(OK,maybe Merion threads).

Brent Hutto

Re: Merion 1971 vs. Merion 2013
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2013, 06:23:12 PM »


That said I would rather play a rolled back ball than have a fundamental disconnect in the rules for "them" and "me" (for some values of "them" and "me"). At most I would be OK with the PGA Tour imposing a Condition of Competition that removes certain models of golf ball from play in their events. At most. Bifurcation would be the most fundamental change in the Rules of Golf that has occurred in Pat Mucci's lifetime, if not longer.


I'm the same way--you just stated it more coherently than I could.

Do you think we're in the majority or minority?

My suspicion is that among the type of golfers I hang around here (combining you guys and the guys at my club) of the three positions to take, the two minority ones are "rollback" and "bifurcation" with the "don't need to do anything" position being by far the majority one.

And really, I am totally on board with Jim Sullivan's (perhaps rhetorical) suggestion that nothing be done and the elite players simply be allowed to hit 220-yard 7-irons or whatever and accept scores in the low 60's rather than making great courses into parodies of a US Open course.

Quote
PS--there is nothing longer than Mucci's lifetime(OK,maybe Merion threads).

I rather suspected they were one and the same...