[Jim Franklin]

I have no idea if he was considered as a longer player back in his heyday. The reason I ask is, if he was not, then why extend 18 SOOOOO far back that even todays bombers barely make it to his plaque. Now if he was the longest guy on tour when he played, then no problem. For some reason, I do not think he was the longest and 18 at Merion is too long.

Look at the shot Justin Rose hit. By all definitions it was perfect, but barreled through the green. No birdies in the last two days? Totally unacceptable.

[David_Tepper]

Based on what I have read, Hogan was indeed long in his day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Based on what I have read, Hogan was indeed long in his day.

That's why you shouldn't believe everything you read.

No, he was not considered long in his day

George Bayer was considered long.

[Matt Kardash]

Well, they have made the hole longer because Ben Hogan hit a 1 iron from 200 yards in 1950. In order to somewhat preserve the integrity of that second shot it must be now played from longer than 200 yards. However, no par 4 can be made long enough anymore to require a 1 iron 2nd shot. It seemed like most of the 2nd shots into 18 were from 200 to 230, meaning a 4 to 6 iron.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Well, they have made the hole longer because Ben Hogan hit a 1 iron from 200 yards in 1950.

Is that the reason they made # 18 longer ?

What about all the other holes that they made longer at Merion ?
Did they make them longer because of what club Hogan hit into them ?

How about ALL of the other holes that were lengthened in every other US Open, were they lengthened based on Hogan's play ?
Or any other golfers play ?

Or, because of the distances the modern golfer hits the ball.

They lengthened the par 3's to 250 and these guys were still hitting 4, 5 and 6 irons

In order to somewhat preserve the integrity of that second shot it must be now played from longer than 200 yards. However, no par 4 can be made long enough anymore to require a 1 iron 2nd shot. It seemed like most of the 2nd shots into 18 were from 200 to 230, meaning a 4 to 6 iron.

[Terry Lavin]

What did Rose hit into 18?  Four iron?

[Mark Pearce]

What did Rose hit into 18?  Four iron?

Yes

[Brent Hutto]

Where did Hogan's 1-iron end up relative to the hole? And where was the hole that day?

Absent actually going into the hole I think Justin Rose's 4-iron was a nigh perfect golf shot.

[Terry Lavin]

What did Rose hit into 18?  Four iron?

Yes

Well, that's the modern equivalent of Hogan's iconic photo op. not such a technological perversion, I suppose. He certainly hit it perfectly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Where did Hogan's 1-iron end up relative to the hole? And where was the hole that day?

Absent actually going into the hole I think Justin Rose's 4-iron was a nigh perfect golf shot.

Brent,

And what everybody forgets is:   Where was the tee that day ?

[Brent Hutto]

I'll take as read that the distances between Hogan's day and today are not in any way comparable. And I'll stipulate that Hogan's 1-iron is a more demanding club to strike perfectly than Rose's 4-iron.

Given all that, I was not alive in 1950 to recall what was the end result of Hogan's approach shot. Just that specific approach, no matter what club was used or how long a shot was required to reach that point in the fairway.

[David_Tepper]

"Based on what I have read, Hogan was indeed long in his day.

That's why you shouldn't believe everything you read.

No, he was not considered long in his day

George Bayer was considered long."

Pat M. -

Hogan was long. Bayer was very long.
At the very least, Hogan was one of the longest, straightest drivers of his era.
 
DT

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Hogan was not considered long.

What's your source for making that statement ?

Bayer was long

[David_Tepper]

Pat -

I have read both Dodson's and Sampson's Hogan biographies.

Yes, George Bayer was likely the longest driver of his era. But, among players who won actually tournaments with some regularity, Hogan was plenty long.

DT

[Garland Bayley]

Why don't you guys just call Patrick on his BS. George Bayer did not even begin to play golf until after all of Ben Hogan's tour wins but one.

[Garland Bayley]

Ben Hogan has always said he hit 2 iron at Merion. The loft of a modern 4 iron is pretty close to that of a 2 iron of Hogan's day.

[BCrosby]

Being "long" and being "the longest" are two different categories. I had always understood that Hogan was on the longer side of the Bell Curve of his era.

There were any number of "longest" players who came and went over the Hogan's playing career.

Bob

[Garland Bayley]

I guess the real answer to Patrick's question is that Ben always chose position over length. Whereas Snead almost always chose length over position.

Under those parameters, it is hard to compare length.

David, did Dodson ever mention Ben participating in long drive competitions?

[Dan_Callahan]

Saying Hogan wasn't long because George Bayer was longer is like saying Mickelson isn't long because Bubba is longer. It's absurd logic. The two things have nothing to do with each other.

[Matt Kardash]

Pat,
I wasn't trying to say that Hogan was or should be used as some sort of standard for how the holes should be played. I just used the him as an example to show that the 18th required a long iron second in 1950. Therefore, to require a longish iron be hit into the green the tee was pushed back. Simple as that.
If the tees weren't pushed back either two things would happen
A) They would reach the plaque and hit the green with a mid iron (thus not making it the same shot)
B) They would drive well past the plaque and hit the green with a short iron (the most likely outcome)
Times have changed.

Well, they have made the hole longer because Ben Hogan hit a 1 iron from 200 yards in 1950.

Is that the reason they made # 18 longer ?

What about all the other holes that they made longer at Merion ?
Did they make them longer because of what club Hogan hit into them ?

How about ALL of the other holes that were lengthened in every other US Open, were they lengthened based on Hogan's play ?
Or any other golfers play ?

Or, because of the distances the modern golfer hits the ball.

They lengthened the par 3's to 250 and these guys were still hitting 4, 5 and 6 irons

In order to somewhat preserve the integrity of that second shot it must be now played from longer than 200 yards. However, no par 4 can be made long enough anymore to require a 1 iron 2nd shot. It seemed like most of the 2nd shots into 18 were from 200 to 230, meaning a 4 to 6 iron.

[Matt Kardash]

Oops. Deleted post by me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat -

I have read both Dodson's and Sampson's Hogan biographies.

Yes, George Bayer was likely the longest driver of his era.

But, among players who won actually tournaments with some regularity, Hogan was plenty long.


Longer than Snead ?

Longer than the Souchak brothers ?

Longer than Nelson ?

I think you'll find that he wasn't a long driver compared to his peers.

I think you'll find a fairly narrow gap amongst his peers

Nelson and Snead were the same age and he wan't longer than them

Bayer was long as were a number of others.

With steel shafts, heavy wooden club heads and 43 inch drivers, distance required strength, especially if you added clubheads size and additional shaft length

I recall playing with Evan "Big Cat" Williams, one of the first really long drivers with old equipment.
His driver was longer and a D-6.
But Evan was a big, powerful athlete at 6'5".

Nobody 5' 8.5" was powerful enough to swing longer heavy clubs.
Nor did they have the arc to generate higher club speeds.

Most kept their right arm tucked into their right side on the swing

Frank Stranhan was a physical fitness buff, probably the first in golf.
He was strong enough to handle altered equipment, as was Palmer later.
But not Hogan



DT

[Craig Van Egmond]

Bob Toski thought he was one of the longest in his day..

"Ben was the only player who surprised his fellow pros when he missed a fairway or green. Even though he was one of the longer hitters on tour, Hogan could go a full season and not hit a drive 40 yards off line. "

http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/ben-hogan-vs.-tiger-woods

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why don't you guys just call Patrick on his BS. George Bayer did not even begin to play golf until after all of Ben Hogan's tour wins but one.

Then try Snead and Nelson on for size, or were they not his contemporaries

[Garland Bayley]

Pat -

I have read both Dodson's and Sampson's Hogan biographies.

Yes, George Bayer was likely the longest driver of his era.

But, among players who won actually tournaments with some regularity, Hogan was plenty long.


Longer than Snead ?

Longer than the Souchak brothers ?

Longer than Nelson ?

I think you'll find that he wasn't a long driver compared to his peers.

I think you'll find a fairly narrow gap amongst his peers

Nelson and Snead were the same age and he wan't longer than them

Bayer was long as were a number of others.

With steel shafts, heavy wooden club heads and 43 inch drivers, distance required strength, especially if you added clubheads size and additional shaft length

I recall playing with Evan "Big Cat" Williams, one of the first really long drivers with old equipment.
His driver was longer and a D-6.
But Evan was a big, powerful athlete at 6'5".

Nobody 5' 8.5" was powerful enough to swing longer heavy clubs.
Nor did they have the arc to generate higher club speeds.

Most kept their right arm tucked into their right side on the swing

Frank Stranhan was a physical fitness buff, probably the first in golf.
He was strong enough to handle altered equipment, as was Palmer later.
But not Hogan



DT

Instead of throwing you BS questions out there, why don't you actually come up with some hard facts?
Like Souchak also was not a contemporary of Hogan?

Also, your stuff about Hogan not being strong is total BS. As far as altered equipment is concerned, most tour players weren't even strong enough to swing Hogan's driver.

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