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Mark Bourgeois

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Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« on: June 16, 2013, 08:08:59 PM »
When major-championship nerves are involved, touch is required so these holes fell contenders as readily as 500 yard par 4s.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2013, 08:12:25 PM »
Mickelson bogeyed the 13th twice.

WW

Phil McDade

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2013, 08:46:58 PM »
Not really impressed with the hole --an easy par with good possibility of a birdie (no hole had more birdies) and little risk (no hole had fewer bogeys) -- not much of interest there. Just because the guy in 2nd place bogeyed it twice doesn't make it meritorious. (And to be candid, Mickelson got a really lousy break when the weather moved through right when he was coming to 13; the wind picked up, and as usual Lefty over-thought the shot and admitted as much afterwards. Without the sudden wind, it's a pretty easy pitch and par for him).

The 7th at Pebble Beach is a much superior short par 3.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2013, 08:51:02 PM »
Mark,

It's hard to understand Phil's club/shot selection.

It'll be interesting to see the stats on the hole

Mark Buzminski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2013, 08:51:48 PM »
Not really impressed with the hole --an easy par with good possibility of a birdie (no hole had more birdies) and little risk (no hole had fewer bogeys) -- not much of interest there. Just because the guy in 2nd place bogeyed it twice doesn't make it meritorious. (And to be candid, Mickelson got a really lousy break when the weather moved through right when he was coming to 13; the wind picked up, and as usual Lefty over-thought the shot and admitted as much afterwards. Without the sudden wind, it's a pretty easy pitch and par for him).

The 7th at Pebble Beach is a much superior short par 3.

What you said about Mickelson overthinking the hole only demonstrates its worth and value.    Especially at Merion, where its utter shortness is in stark contrast to the other beastly par 3's.  

Mike Sweeney

Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2013, 08:55:50 PM »
Mark,

It'll be interesting to see the stats on the hole

http://www.usopen.com/en_US/course/hole.html?n=13

2.81 for the week.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2013, 08:58:06 PM »
Not really impressed with the hole --an easy par with good possibility of a birdie (no hole had more birdies) and little risk (no hole had fewer bogeys) -- not much of interest there. Just because the guy in 2nd place bogeyed it twice doesn't make it meritorious. (And to be candid, Mickelson got a really lousy break when the weather moved through right when he was coming to 13; the wind picked up, and as usual Lefty over-thought the shot and admitted as much afterwards. Without the sudden wind, it's a pretty easy pitch and par for him).

The 7th at Pebble Beach is a much superior short par 3.

What you said about Mickelson overthinking the hole only demonstrates its worth and value.    Especially at Merion, where its utter shortness is in stark contrast to the other beastly par 3's.  

Mark:

Sure, it's in contrast to Merion's other par 3s -- that doesn't make it praiseworthy. Mickelson's over-thinking of the shot was a one-time event brought by a sudden uptick in wind. That's a Mickelson thing, not a sign of the virtues of the hole. The hole's strategy seems to be: Hit a modest-sized green somewhere and see if you can sink a putt. If not, move on with a sweat-less par to the really hard holes.

The 7th at Pebble is always exposed to the wind, has a downhill element that adds to doubt on club selection, and has huge risk for a less-than-well-executed shot. And I think the Pebble 7th green in June is harder to putt than the 13th at Merion. That's a praiseworthy short US Open par 3.

Josh Tarble

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2013, 08:59:57 PM »
Phil,
I think that's a valid point in that it certainly is easy. But maybe that's what makes it a brilliant hole. It's a very easy par but not being satisfied with 3 and pressing for 2 can play havoc with decision making and a golfers swing.  It challenges a golfer to be mentally strong and accept a "bad" 3

Phil McDade

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2013, 09:03:17 PM »
Phil,
I think that's a valid point in that it certainly is easy. But maybe that's what makes it a brilliant hole. It's a very easy par but not being satisfied with 3 and pressing for 2 can play havoc with decision making and a golfers swing.  It challenges a golfer to be mentally strong and accept a "bad" 3

Josh -- now that's a sign of overthinking! Par at every hole this year at the US Open wins the tourney.

Brent Hutto

Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2013, 09:04:36 PM »
So do you guys think the thirteenth would be improved if it were 50 yards longer? Or do you think Merion needed yet another 200+ yard monster one-shotter?

Like a short Par 4, any hole where elite players think they "have to" make birdie to keep pace is a perfectly fine thing. It's funny we praise some courses for the rather arbitrary feature of having Par 3 holes facing in each of the four cardinal compass directions. Yet having one that is unique for being a) much shorter and b) much easier relative to par than the other Par 3's on the course is not viewed as a big plus.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2013, 09:08:14 PM »
I think it's a good hole. It seems to me that the players expected to birdie 13, or thought they needed to birdie it, and that lead to over analysis and poor execution. The fact that a 100+ yard hole can confound the best players and even cause them to falter is a pretty decent sign of the hole's worth.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2013, 09:14:50 PM »
Phil,
I think that's a valid point in that it certainly is easy. But maybe that's what makes it a brilliant hole. It's a very easy par but not being satisfied with 3 and pressing for 2 can play havoc with decision making and a golfers swing.  It challenges a golfer to be mentally strong and accept a "bad" 3

Josh -- now that's a sign of overthinking! Par at every hole this year at the US Open wins the tourney.

Phil,
I think that's the beauty of Merion. With those closing holes lurking, trying to press and make a birdie gets in those guys heads. More than any other course I can think of Merion needs to be looked at as a whole rather than singular holes (although it does have world class holes as well).

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2013, 09:16:16 PM »
Brian:

The 13th didn't confound anyone at Merion, relative to the rest of the course.  It played well under par -- on a course that didn't yield a single 72-hole under-par score -- and yielded more than 3 times as many birdies to bogeys. Using Lefty's bogey(s) there to justify its merits is the fallacy of small sample sizes. :D

Brent: The yardage to me doesn't matter. It's the lack of risk (bogeys) that I'd argue should go along with a measure of reward (birdies) on a US Open course where par should be rewarded and is  worthy score.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 09:21:55 PM by Phil McDade »

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2013, 09:20:01 PM »
But doesn't it fit well withing the greater context of the course?  Especially for the U.S. Open set up?

The set up was brutal, the closing stretch in particular.  Here's a scoring chance.  Take advantage or fall back on the field.

Seems to actually benefit the entire course and highlight the way the routing stacks challenges on top of each other.

I do think Augusta's championship routing is better with the way it generates drama coming down the stretch...but 13 at Merion seems to fit the course well.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2013, 09:22:53 PM »
Brian:

The 13th didn't confound anyone at Merion, relative to the rest of the course.  It played well under par -- on a course that didn't yield a single 72-hole under-par score -- and yielded more than 3 times as many birides to bogeys. Using Lefty's bogey(s) there to justify its merits is the fallacy of small sample sizes. :D

Phil himself admitted that he pulled the wrong club. He was thinking he needed to make birdie on a short hole, and he failed to execute. The 13th was the last realistic birdie chance, so I think he (and others) tried too hard to outwit a short hole. That doesn't necessarily mak 13 a great hole, but it also doesn't mean it's a bad hole.

Is it as good as the 7th at Pebble? Maybe not. How does it compare to the Postage Stamp?

Mike Schott

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2013, 09:23:20 PM »
Phil,
I think that's a valid point in that it certainly is easy. But maybe that's what makes it a brilliant hole. It's a very easy par but not being satisfied with 3 and pressing for 2 can play havoc with decision making and a golfers swing.  It challenges a golfer to be mentally strong and accept a "bad" 3

Brilliant is a generous term for the hole. I'm a fan of short par 3's but there's nothing special about Merion 13 as far as I can tell on TV. Maybe the green forces you to play to a small area to make birdie but it's a very simple par. No match for 7 at Pebble beach or Troon's Postage Stamp. Rustic Canyon's 8th penalizes you more for missing short if I recall.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2013, 09:25:28 PM »
I didn't say it was a bad hole -- just not one worthy of praise, and certainly not one that caused many problems for the players at this US Open.

Addendum: The Postage Stamp strikes me similarly to Pebble's 7th as a superior championship "dinky" par 3 - real trouble lurks there with a misplayed shot.


Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2013, 09:28:02 PM »
Besides creating the pressure of expectations ("must step on the gas" makes the number on the card irrelevant - it's about keeping up with / doing better than the field), it seemed most players hit less than full-on wedges, thus my point about nerves. Calling on touch when the adrenaline is coursing through you makes for a major-tournament challenge.

Like how the 12th at Augusta isn't supposed to be hard for the pros until Sunday.

I'm speaking to the architecture somewhat but more to the 13th hole on a Sunday of a major championship requiring some measure of touch.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 09:38:08 PM by Mark Bourgeois »
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2013, 09:29:09 PM »
I didn't say it was a bad hole -- just not one worthy of praise, and certainly not one that caused many problems for the players at this US Open.

Addendum: The Postage Stamp strikes me similarly to Pebble's 7th as a superior championship "dinky" par 3 - real trouble lurks there with a misplayed shot.

Phil seemed to be in real trouble when he airmailed the green.

David_Tepper

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2013, 09:36:21 PM »
"Like how the 12th at Augusta isn't supposed to be hard for the pros until Sunday."

Mark B. -

You can probably say the same thing about #17 at TPC Sawgrass.

DT

Josh Tarble

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2013, 09:40:54 PM »
Phil,
The things that make PB #7 and the postage Stamp great and difficult, Merion just doesn't have. PB has elevation change and a bit of wind. The postage stamp has wind.     Fact of the matter these guys are too good with a straight up wedge to make it too difficult. To me there was plenty of danger lurking, they just don't miss too often. Only defense is messing with their heads on a shot like that   

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2013, 09:46:08 PM »
I think Merion's 13th hole fits perfectly into the routing and it's what the land permits.

It closes the "gettable" section of the golf course with the most likely birdie opportunity.

Add that it arguably cost Mickelson the tournament and it seems to right in place.

WW

John McCarthy

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2013, 10:13:37 PM »
12 at Augusta and 17 at Sawgrass both have par sitting there...just don't go for the Sunday pin. 

But if you need birdie....

13 today demanded birdie if you needed to win.  It was well done.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Matthew Rose

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2013, 11:56:12 PM »
I had high hopes for some train-wrecks there.... it didn't really happen, although Phil did essentially lose the tourney there.

I'm surprised they didn't shave the right side bank to bring the creek into play.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Ken Moum

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Re: Let us now praise dinky par 3s at major championships
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2013, 12:03:51 AM »
Well, there were about the same number of birdies on #13 as there were at #10 and only 17 fewer bogies.

http://www.usopen.com/en_US/scoring/cstats.html
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010