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ian

You don't need length to be difficult, case study
« on: June 19, 2003, 06:13:09 PM »
HUNTINGDON VALLEY

If I were asked which course would be a great test for the pros without being 7,000 yards. Huntingdon Valley is it, at 6,872 yards it may be the toughest course I have seen! Why?

1. Side-hill slopes for awkward stances
2. very intricate and difficult greens to place a premium on the approach putting
3. actual old fashioned grain on the greens to test a players ability to read the greens
4. hard and fast playing conditions which force shot-making
5. very uphill and downhill shots to demand distance judgement
6. fall away greens, requiring bounce in approaches
7. tee shots with up-slopes in the landing area that control length

Huntington Valley has got all the key ingredients…… and so very much more.
 
I loved Flynn’s quote found in the 1927 Golf Course Architecture and Construction. It says, ”The problems which should be developed on the various holes in their order of importance are first—accuracy; second—carry; third-- length, which includes carry and roll. The premium on accuracy should carry the greatest reward for that is the essence of any game. Carry, while slightly less important than accuracy is important in that it promotes boldness. Length may be considered least important but this becomes quite a factor when a player is able to mould all three tests together ”

Flynn definitely regarded accuracy and positioning as the key to design, and in particular to playing well at Huntingdon Valley. I was really impressed by how used terrain to his advantage, and to become the key element to demanding accuracy from the player.

Flynn not only worked holes into the natural slope of the valley, but occasional against the natural slope. In this Flynn has presented a few types of holes that are fairly unique in today’s context.

The most unique feature Flynn used to test a great player is the holes that dogleg against the land. Let’s use the 16th as an example. He has a dogleg bending to the left where the land is falling to the right, the tee shot is uphill all the way to the landing, and to make it more demanding he makes the landing area the highest point on the pitch of the hill. The player is placed in a position where they have to hit their driver, to be long enough to see the green; and they must play a draw to hold the ball on the fairway, a cut will simply not stay on the fairway. At the Sixteenth green, the contour falls hard to the right, which favours a draw approach; but Flynn has put the player in a position where they have a fade lie. This puts tremendous pressure on a player’s ability to make shots.

The 16th and its approximate landforms are shown in yellow, the general slope in red and the desired ball flight in white. The gold line on 14 shows the typical carry angle used by Flynn to indicate the desired route to the best location for your next shot.



The 14th is a different technique to make a player hit the same two shots (as in 16). As you can see in the photo below, he has ingeniously used two landforms going in opposite directions to set up the hole the same way. Off the tee the player must play a cut to hold the slope from the tee and keep the ball on the fairway, the next shot is designed to receive a cut shot; but this is from a draw lie. Two different methods to make a player have to work the ball to be successful.


Note the two opposing landforms.


Most of today’s players choose not to work the ball. They hit the ball so far and carry their irons so high and long, that they have learned to use distance control to overcome just about any modern hazard. The reason I feel that Huntingdon Valley is the model to test the tremendous skills of a modern player is that the players will have no choice but to work the ball. They are not as comfortable working the ball, and today’s technology is designed to reduce the amount of curve in the flight of the ball. This, to me, seems the only way to get away from the distance and control game that golf has evolved into, and return some of the shotmaking back to golf

I’ll try illustrate my point with this review of the way Flynn used the slopes to test the players ability to work the ball

1      385yds, very downhill
-whole hole slopes hard from right to left
-the slope of the fairway gets steeper the more aggressive you play
-aggressive play brings the fairway bunkers into play
      -the approach is from a downhill and side-hill lie to a flanked green



2      431 yards uphill tee shot, downhill approach
- the fairway slopes hard from right to left
      -the green slopes hard from right to left and the green falls away from play
-the only way to hold the green is to cut the ball in from a draw lie
-a run in shot is possible but very difficult to execute since the ball would roll longer with a
 draw and the green runs away from play

3.      212 yards uphill hole to a fall away green
      -requires a cut to hold the green, but that’s the shallowest part
-a short ball will get held up in the approach slope to the green
-the green runs away to the left



4 366 yard downhill
-a flat fairway where being far and right gives the best angle
“One drive and run-up, elbow or cape type, with premium on length of drive.”
      -green falls away from play



5 169 yards downhill
-wonderful diagonal with creek
-green slopes aggressively from left to right, above is an impossible recovery
-large false front
-missing right is in the creek, great back right pin



6. 450 yards
-the hole slopes left and downhill all the way to the green with a green that steps away from the player



7. 556 yards, uphill tee shot, down hill to green
-need to play a cut shot to hold the ball against the right to left sloping fairway
-need to cut the next ball into the second landing to hold the slope
-green
'One real three-shotter, not merely a hole somewhere over 500 yards.



8.      -400 yards, blind uphill tee shot
      -fairway slopes very hard to left with large undulations in the fairway
      -green is above the second landing

9.      -460 yards, very downhill hole to very elevated greeen
-downhill stance to green on a severe plateau above the landing area
-short is at the bottom of the hill and long is an impossible shot



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

ian

Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case st
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2003, 06:13:28 PM »
10. -400 yards over a creek at about 220 off the tee, creek used to cut into right again at 250
-very uphill approach, green is hard to judge
-very sharp left to right fall on green with very deep bunker on right



11. -372 yards, hard dogleg left, ground falling hard right
-must be right edge of fairway to have shot in due to enormous green side oak
'One drive and mashie niblic to island green.



      -green is ultra narrow angling to left with a creek hard up against the front
      -the lie is a fade lie where a draw is a must due the tree and angle of the green



12. -404 yards, carry the creek or not, it starts at 220 on the left and runs on a 45 to the right
-long iron if you lay up, short iron if you can make the shot into the prevailing wind
-green falls off the front and back, with much cross fall as usual



13. -184 yards, slightly downhill, over a pond
-illusion makes the hole appear shorter than it is
-hole appears benign, but is fraught with trouble

14. -467 yards, shown above, fairway landing falls hard to left, requires cut to hold the slope
-the green falls hard right requiring a draw from a cut lie to hold the ball into the slope



-the green can have a run-in approach, but does shed the ball right
-of important note: this is Donald Ross’s green site



15. -571 yards, uphill tee shot into the slope
-hole falls hard right, and requires a draw to hold the slope on your second
-carry bunker challenges the player trying to get close
-green side bunkers on right are extremely deep
-green has a spine in the middle where the back left goes left and the rest falls right and forward
-the grain is very pronounced in this green

16. -400 yards, uphill shot with the landing just over the brow of the hill
-very hard to hold slope without a hard draw
-a strong slope gives a cut lie whereas the green falls hard right favouring a draw approach
-green is very heavily contoured and long putts are three putts
-bunkering on the right of the green is a minimum of 10 feet



17. -211 yards, a slightly downhill par 3
-creek used to go around the green and behind, but was moved recently
-acurracy is at a premium



18. -the best finishing hole in Philadelphia? (according to some, I couldn’t say)
-434 yards, both shots are very uphill
-carry as much as you dare on the tee, or don’t get home in two
'Two drive and full wood shot holes, one with a big carry on the drive as the premium with an easy entrance to the green, the other with accuracy on the drive but with the premium on a big carry for the second shot.



-very uphill approach to a very tough to hit green
-again this from an uphill and sidehill lie



I’ve tried, but I doubt I have done justice to this ultimate test in shot-making.  

There was a statement saying how Huntingdon Valley or many of the other amazing Flynn layouts in the Philadelphia area can’t be that good if they are too hard to distinguish from each. You have to look at this course for an answer. Huntington Valley is not pretty, it is not flashy or showy; it is simply a solid test of golf. Flynn designed this golf course to test the best of a player’s ability to hit difficult shots from uncomfortable positions. Why is Flynn not appreciated as much as he should be? It is because a Flynn design is subtle, it’s more about angles and shot values than aesthetics and beauty.

Huntington Valley made me realise that an architect can use slope and stance much more effectively than length to combat the strengths of a modern player. I hear that time has past many great golf courses, and they are simply not long enough to hold a championship. I really think that Huntingdon Valley could hold an open tomorrow, and that our obsession with length as challenge is grossly misplaced.

I had the great pleasure of going around Huntington Valley with Lincoln Roden III (historian), Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison. What a great way to get your first taste of William Flynn. I hope I have not let them down in my assessment of why this course is so great.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case st
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2003, 07:26:44 PM »
Ian

You had the greatest of hosts for your round at Huntingdon Valley.  Thanks for the fine photos that help me to remember my time there.  

I believe your basic premise and we have discussed here before that Huntingdon Valley is the poster child of Tom Paul's "maintenance meld".  I'm sure you have seen that Linc endorses that idea as well and writes extensively about it in his book which I hope he gave you. However, your premise about an Open tomorrow is in part broken by the fact that Linc was able at age 71 I believe to BREAK his age by 2 shots at Huntingdon Valley last year. Pretty amazing.  Put four of those in a row and he's the oldest Open champ by far  ;D

Did you play the C nine as well?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case st
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2003, 04:06:45 AM »
Ian & Geoff,

The bunker sand looks new, has any work been done to the course recently, if so, by whom ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case st
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2003, 04:21:59 AM »
Also, Redanman and I were discussing the "Centennial 9" which I did not get to play last summer due to timing. On the scorecard it says "The Centennial 9 was reopened on 4/11/98." What is the story on it? Flynn & Toomey also?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

woof

Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case st
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2003, 05:39:00 AM »
Ian:  I thoroughly enjoyed your post as I have thoroughly enjoyed Huntingdon Valley on the occasions I have had to play there.  Anyone from the Philadelphia area knows the success Huntingdon Valley golfers have in the GAP matches and in local tournaments.  I believe this is a direct result of the shotmaking skills developed on their course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case st
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2003, 06:10:31 AM »
Ian- A wondeful piece of work! Perhaps it can be copied or submitted as an "In my opinion" section.

 The closest I've come to a Flynn, is UNM's south course (red lawrence). The notion of non-flat lies is a key ingredient in evaluating the shot making demands on any great course. But, I would like to mention what jumped off the page at me. That was in your description you refered to Flynn making the golfer hit certain shots and that other types of shaped shots just won't work. This is a major difference in what I have come to appreciate as a fundemental philosophy of the roll of the architect. I don't think I'm criticising, I think I am recognizing the difference in design philosophy, juxtaposed to my personal preference.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case st
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2003, 06:13:00 AM »
Mike,

It is Toomey and Flynn with two small exceptions.

The course was reclaimed from the trees except for the 6th and 7th. The range has affected the location of the 6th green and the 7th tees. The 7th fairway is also different due to wetland issues. Otherwise, its all origional contour that has been recaptured. Linc did a wonderful job in keeping the origional character.

The centenial nine is just as interesting as the other two; but seems to be even harder than the first two nines.

Pat, I shot the photos in a light rain, do not read too much into them, some have even had the lighting adjusted for clarity.

Woof, I agree with you point about there competitive strength coming from where they play. Hopefully Tom will add some of the competitive history of the club.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case st
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2003, 07:45:17 AM »
Ian,

Great shots and a teriffic post!

I had the great opportunity to play at Flynn's Lehigh last year and can see some of the similarities.  It's courses like these that truly bring back the idea of shotmaking and what it really means for the game...fun, fun, fun!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case st
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2003, 10:09:11 AM »
Ian,
Thanks for a great posting.  Though I've not had the privlidge of playing HV, I can tell you that members at my club spent a lot of time practicing and honing their skills to try to get to play their GAP (Golf Assn. of Philadelphia) matches at HV.

One of my friends called it the must fun golf experience he'd ever had.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case study
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2008, 04:56:30 PM »
What a nice find this was for me...


Adam,

I'd let Ian aaddress your comments but since he left you hanging for nearly 5 years I'll take a stab...

I would simply say that any shot anywhere that does not offer a preference to one type of approach over another is lacking in quality in my opinion.

The holes, and shots, described by Ian do not result in a jail sentence if you do not hit the right shot...it's just that the right shot offers a wider berth for success...I'd also suggest that a firm fairway and green has as much to do with that as the architecture.

Question...5 years on, has your "personal preference in design philosophy" remained constant?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case study
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2008, 06:56:13 PM »
Adam,

Cool time machine. I see you managed to go back in time to edit your post. You must have taken your computer and the internet with you  to manage it.
 ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case study
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 12:20:50 PM »
I'd be interested to hear an objective analysis, in the vein of this one, about the Centennial nine...I'm not qualified.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case study
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 12:42:57 PM »
I'd be interested to hear an objective analysis, in the vein of this one, about the Centennial nine...I'm not qualified.

Subjective works just fine for me. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case study
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 01:23:03 PM »
I'de be interested to know how guest Ian edited his original post on Jan. 1, 1970!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case study
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2008, 01:33:27 PM »
I'de be interested to know how guest Ian edited his original post on Jan. 1, 1970!

Standard default time reset for servers and other computer hardware, First day of 1970.  Its a magic number!!   :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 01:36:25 PM by Kalen Braley »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case study
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2008, 01:37:06 PM »

Kalen,

        Only for cool computers, not that microsoft stuff. :)


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case study
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2008, 01:39:57 PM »

Kalen,

        Only for cool computers, not that microsoft stuff. :)



Well seeing how most probably don't run MicroCrap software on servers, thats why it shows up in a forum or something.  These days though when you buy something from Dell, time is often pre-configured.  I haven't done a fresh MS OS install in awhile, I wonder what it defaults to these days..

Peter Pallotta

Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case study
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2008, 02:01:24 PM »
Thanks for bringing this back up, JES. I'd never seen it before. And it reminds me of what I've said before here -- that in the reading and learning I've done about golf architecture since I've come to this site, no one has come to impress me more than William Flynn (with H Fowler and P Maxwell close seconds). It's also interesting to think about how your experience there at HV has shaped your views on architecture; I think it was TE who once mentioned how well HV members have done in the big Amateur events because of how they have to learn to play the various shots on that course.   

Peter 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 02:06:57 PM by Peter Pallotta »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You don't need length to be difficult, case study
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2008, 02:43:27 PM »
Peter,

I think a more important foundation for a clubs members achieving success in competitions is the ethos of the club itself...not so much to do with the course...the other couple of clubs in the area that have developed a number of real strong players are generally not highly regarded courses, architecturally. Huntingdon Valley has embraced a strong competitive history and is very generous to young people (good golfers or not).


Re: William Flynn...don't let these Flynnophiles get you too wrapped up...