Tom Paul was right!

[Bill Brightly]

Bill B,

I was talking prior to the putting surface but I suppose 16 at Yeamans is a good example of your point.

Best,

I am talking about landing on the downslope of the swale on most Biarritz holes. that will give you the turbo boost. You might say that is an exacting shout, but it is 20-3- yards shorter than a flown shot to the back section.

[Connor Dougherty]

This is a feature of a bunch of holes on The Old Course at St. Andrews, starting with #5 and #6.  But I'm sure the powers that be are considering removing such a weakness. 

I'm going to be pissed if the powers at be alter the slope at 5. It is the site of my one and only double eagle, and it was because of that "turbo booster" that my ball reached the green and eventually the cup

[Sean_A]

This is a feature of a bunch of holes on The Old Course at St. Andrews, starting with #5 and #6.  But I'm sure the powers that be are considering removing such a weakness. 

Yeah, but TOC also has the 7th which can turbo boost your ball into Shell or, perhaps worse, just shy of Shell.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Pre-green swales with turbo-boosts (or PSWTs, as they are known in the trade...) are highly overrated given that far too much prior knowledge (exact shape, maintenance practices of the day, weather conditions, etc.) is required to skillfully negotiate them successfully, and too great a penalty is given if you over or under club just slightly on your approach.  Far better (architecturally and enjoyment-wise) are the holes that simply fall dowhill from the approach to the green.  Recently I have played two outstanding examples of this design, at the 18ths of Sheringham in Norfolk and Murrayfield in Edinburgh.  You still need to be precise to get the ball close to the hole, but you never have to worry about ending up 50 yards short or long due to chance as you do with most PSWTs.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Pre-green swales with turbo-boosts (or PSWTs, as they are known in the trade...) are highly overrated given that far too much prior knowledge (exact shape, maintenance practices of the day, weather conditions, etc.) is required to skillfully negotiate them successfully, and too great a penalty is given if you over or under club just slightly on your approach.  Far better (architecturally and enjoyment-wise) are the holes that simply fall dowhill from the approach to the green.  Recently I have played two outstanding examples of this design, at the 18ths of Sheringham in Norfolk and Murrayfield in Edinburgh.  You still need to be precise to get the ball close to the hole, but you never have to worry about ending up 50 yards short or long due to chance as you do with most PSWTs.

Yes - I agree with this.

[Scott Sander]

Did anyone get a sense whether Mickleson might have had the opportunity to play the shot described above for his second on Sunday?  I truly have no idea - perhaps the lie and/or angle did not allow for the proper trajectory or weight.  But if he -had- been able to interact with the course that way, he would have been a folk hero here.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

Agree on the under club, disagree on the over club.

[Mark McKeever]

Country Club of Scranton, 10th hole.  It's got a second shot that you can either carry onto the green or land WELL short and let it chase onto the green.  Unlike 18 at Merion however, if you go long, its shaved straigt into a creek.  Its an excellent hole with a very unique approach.


Mark

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Several holes at East Lake have a similar feature but affect the tee shot rather than the green approach.
Off the top of my head I think it is very evident at numbers seven,twelve and sixteen.

[BCrosby]

As for East Lake, I would add one and five with turbo boosts off the tees.

Bob

[Jim Sherma]

Harker's Hollow in Phillipsburg, NJ is an old Robert White design that had multiple kick plates that were needed to be played to in order to hold the greens. The course is built up into the side of a mountain and the back nine tack its way up the slope across a outward bend of the mountain. Most of the fairways are reverse cambered doglegs with approach shots played to built-up shelved greens off of severely sloped lies. The regulars knew the spots to land the ball short of the greens in order to have the ball stop in the middle of the greens. This was before there was a full irrigation system and it was a terribly fun course to play that required a lot of local knowledge to score well on. Since the irrigation was put in I found the course less interesting as shots to the greens were holding.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

16th at Philly Country

[Jim Sherma]

The key to these types of holes are the willingness to keep the approaches firm enoiugh to work. This coupled with appropriate risks related to simply flying it to the green make the decision to use the run-in versus the aerial approaches interesting. Holes with fallaway greens and/or significant trouble on the sides and rear of the greens seem to work well for this.

[Bill Brightly]

Did anyone get a sense whether Mickleson might have had the opportunity to play the shot described above for his second on Sunday?  I truly have no idea - perhaps the lie and/or angle did not allow for the proper trajectory or weight.  But if he -had- been able to interact with the course that way, he would have been a folk hero here.

I can tell you that he did not try for this play. He hit it as far as he could (past the kick plate) in an effort to get as close as possible to the green. The lie was difficult but not impossible.  I think the lie would have permitted a righty golfer to maybe chase a draw up to the green, not sure about a lefty hitting a fade.

[DMoriarty]

I disagree with Rich.  The type of "prior knowledge" he mentions is required on many of the greatest features in golf.  As for the "penalty" if one underclubs, it pales in comparison to the penalty one incurs at a hazard.  

One thing I like about pre-green swales is that they defend the green against an attempt at a great shot which falls just short.  If a golfer attempts to carry all the way to the green but doesn't quite make it, the the upslope of the swale will reject the shot. So a swale can provide a "boost" to a player with the sense to land it well short to try and run it up, while at the same time thwarting an almost perfect longer shot.   This defensive component of the swale doesn't get discussed much, but it was very much one of the keys to the concept to CBM and Wilson.  The golfer had to make a choice. Commit to the running shot through the swale at the risk of going offline or not making it, or commit to completely clearing the swale, at the risk of having an almost perfect ball rejected by the upslope.

As Lynn mentioned, Rustic Canyon has a pre-green swale on the 6th hole which is a longish par three (216.)  One can use the swale as a turbo boost and it is a fun shot to do so, but mostly the swale catches the shots of those who try to carry the green but don't quite make it.  And I think that this is largely the point.  The large swale before the 17th green at Merion serves the same purpose.  This would have been moreso when the hole first opened and carrying to the green was less of a sure thing for even good golfers.

Speaking of pre-green swales, isn't there also a swale about 20 yards short of the 18th green at NGLA?

[Bill Brightly]

That is a good point, David. I see the upslope stop many a well hit shot at my home course Biarritz. I am in a bit of a quandry on this hole almost every time I play it. If the regular tees are moved up, I can hit 3 rescue to the back tier. If they are middle or back, I can't, so my best play is landing it on the downslope of the swale. When the wind is up a bit, I hit 3 wood, but that club always has the chance of bounding over the green.

Which underscores what I believe: turboboosts, swales, kickmounds, etc. all work best when the green is firm and there is a real risk of going long.

[DMoriarty]

Bill,  I agree that conditioning is key.   Also with swales it seems to be important that the distance of the approach is such that the golfer might not be totally confident in carrying (and holding) the green.  Such would have been the case with Merion's 18th certainly.  

By your description of how the swale plays at your course, it sounds like it works well for you. Swales create sort of a dead zone where the golfer can't be wishy-washy.  He must either carry them completely (and hole the ball stops) or he must play well back and run through them.  Balls landing in the swale don't usually make it out, by design.
________________________________________________


It is interesting to consider Merion's swale on 18 in the context of Phil's last two rounds . . .

On Saturday he laid so far back that his shot choices probably came fairly close to replicating that of golfers 100 years ago. He chose to try and carry the ball all the way to the green, and while the shot looked brilliant, he couldn't stop the ball on the surface, and he ended up taking a bogey.  What if he had played a running shot landing short of or on the downslope of the swale? Almost unimaginable, I know, but it might have given him a better chance of actually stopping it on the green.  

On Sunday he had a long tough shot on the rough, and he tried to run it up, but he landed in the bottom of the swale, and his ball didn't go anywhere.  Again, what if he had tried to hit it short of the swale or on the downslope?   Would he have had a better chance of running the ball onto the green?

[Sven Nilsen]

Would it have been possible to use the kickplate to get to a back pin?

Seems to me that the only chance at making birdie on Sunday was to somehow stop the ball on the back portion of the green or have it run just over (ala Justin Rose). 

Tom Paul's words were that the kickplate on 18 was an option to be considered, and I'd add that the thought process would need to take into account the location of the pin.

[Ally Mcintosh]

David,

Whilst I agree that swales and prior knowledge are in general good features in a golf course, I agree with Rich that in general pre-swale turbo boosts are too unpredictable and precise (in most cases) to provide the fun and enjoyment that can be gained from other features that encourage the running game such as kicker plates and general downhill slopes.

In my experience, on true firm and fast conditions (i.e. links golf), there are very, very few pre-green turbo-boosts that I play for (in other words, I can't think of one).... Where there are pre-green swales built in to a design, the best options on a downwind day are to play short and run through the swale or to play directly in to the upslope on the far side of the swale to stun the ball before it climbs on to the green....

If up close anyway, I may be playing for a turbo-boost... But not for a long approach which is the question being tackled on this thread...

Rich can correct me if I've misinterpreted him. However, the above are my thoughts.... i.e. turbo-boosts are fine features but should not be overrated in their effectiveness...

[Sean_A]

I lean toward Ally on this one.  If one is good enough to take advantage of  turbo boost to the green, why not just hit the green?  If its a question of a player not being long enough to reach the green over the boost, isn't it just a matter of luck if playing for the boost works?  I mean, if a guy is just bashing a wood up there - who knows what will happen.  Still, there must be some element of skill if a chap is going for a shot and pulls it off - so I can't totally discount the idea.

On the other hand, I definitely think turbo boosts can work off the tee.  The problem is, for the guy I think we can best use as examples of this, namely Ross, I don't think that was his intention at all.  I think he meant for long hitters to be able to reach the top of hills in his day.  Now, longer hitters can hit the downslope, kick to the bottom of valleys and gain a level lie and a much shorter approach. 

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

I looked high and low last night for video of Stricker's shot without success. Could someone post a link or even upload to Youtube one of those crappy record-your-TV-with-your-phone efforts?

[Bill Brightly]

I looked high and low last night for video of Stricker's shot without success. Could someone post a link or even upload to Youtube one of those crappy record-your-TV-with-your-phone efforts?

I hate to even post this, but since you asked...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqG-0hd21JU

[Andy Troeger]

Has Stricker said anything as to whether he was intentionally trying to play for that bounce or whether that's just how far he could hit the ball and the bounce was a fortunate break? 

At least in the case of Merion's 18th, it struck me as a tougher shot to pull off intentionally than the already difficult shot to hit the green the regular way, at least for guys that had the length to get there.

[Lou_Duran]

Pre-green swales with turbo-boosts (or PSWTs, as they are known in the trade...) are highly overrated given that far too much prior knowledge (exact shape, maintenance practices of the day, weather conditions, etc.) is required to skillfully negotiate them successfully, and too great a penalty is given if you over or under club just slightly on your approach.  Far better (architecturally and enjoyment-wise) are the holes that simply fall dowhill from the approach to the green.  Recently I have played two outstanding examples of this design, at the 18ths of Sheringham in Norfolk and Murrayfield in Edinburgh.  You still need to be precise to get the ball close to the hole, but you never have to worry about ending up 50 yards short or long due to chance as you do with most PSWTs.

.... and how many of these are actually the result of the architect's careful consideration as opposed to locating the greens on higher ground and the happy coincidence of naturally rolling terrain.  BTW, it didn't seem to work out too well for Phil on 18, coming out of the rough with a bunch of spin (maybe he didn't get enough of the ball but he chased after it, albeit with less exuberance than Sergio at Medinah, at least suggesting that he was hoping for a better result).

On wooded golf courses with elevated greens draining from back to front, about the only way to get the foul balls to chase up is to hit it well short with force on a very low trajectory and hope.  As Rich notes, not many have the necessities to pull these shots off.

[Will Lozier]

What I think is interesting and perhaps unique about this feature (and this shot) is that it is level with (even a bit below?) the green!  And, although I am not familiar with some of the holes mentioned to this point, I would say most holes have said feature situated above the green level - or better yet, the architect sited the green below and beyond it.  Am I wrong?