Is the 11th Merions' worst hole?

[Josh Tarble]

As a standalone hole 11 may or may not great but given the ebb and flow of the routing I think it's fantastic. After many of the holes providing numerous options it requires a straight tee ball and then a high lofted shot to a small target. In a course that has so many options 11 is a great hole that forces the golfer to play certain shots and play them well.

[Sean_A]

I would certainly take a different route here.  I think the weakest hole has to be one of the par 5s.  I would choose a 5 because as a set, its the weakest at Merion by quite a distance. 

By what criteria ?

I don't think #s 2 or 4 really add much to the course. 

How many times have you played them ?

Just because of the bunker/water redundancy, I would opt for #4.  If I were to choose a par 4, it would be #6, but that is mostly based on not wanting thinking that any of the short 4s should be selected as worst because these holes go a long way to making Merion that sort of course hackers can't get round on. 

Sean,

The fairway on # 4 has considerable slope to it and the green is well protected.

It's more difficult than the yardage and TV might indicate.

Ciao

By my personal top secret criteria neither par 5 can claim anything close to greatness.  Solid, workman-like - yes; great, anticipation to play again, no.

#2 is flat-out ugly.  The marooned bunker is one of the more dopey things I have seen on a great course. 

#4 has dopey bunkers mixed with the water mixed with harsh rough - not great architecture.  Its a great shame because thr 4th could be very good as it plays over good terrain, the green is interesting and water is in play.

What do you think the worst hole is?

Ciao 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I thought No.4 had one great looking tee-shot, Sean...

From d'telly, I wasn't that taken on No.11 either... Although it seemed to play its part on the final day there...

[Dan Herrmann]

I think 11 is an wonderful hole.  That green is a virtual island - surrounded by Cobb's Creek, bunkers, and gnarly rough.  It's a very, very intimidating 2nd shot.

[Rich Goodale]

Well spotted, Ran.  11 is in fact the worst hole of Merion East, which just shows how great that course is.  Somehow, I cannot see MacDonald (and much less HH Barker) taking the risk of going into and then out of that wee swamp whilst maintaining a continuity with the greatness of the rest of the terrain.  There is a quiet genius in Merion East, but it traspires from the gentleness of time, rather than the speculative factota of its genesis.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

Weren't sections of NGLA a swamp ?

Yet CBM routed, planned and built holes there.

Besides, he had Raynor and Francis to take care of those issues

[Philip Gawith]

Mr Ran, I wonder if when you penned this topic you remembered this old Tom MacWood thread about RTJ's 1942 eclectic 18 which included the 11th at Merion?!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43458.0.html



RTJ's eclectic 18 from LIFE magazine July 20, 1942:

1. 13th-Pine Valley par-4
2. 11th-Merion par-4
3. 10th-Greenbriar(Old White) par-4
4. 18th-Pinehurst #2 par-4
5. 13th-Augusta Nat'l. par-5
6. 13th-Belleview Biltmore par-4
7. 6th-Dallas par-3
8. 18th-Pebble Beach par-5
9. 16th-Cypress Point par-3

10. 18th-Cherry Hills par-4
11. 11th-Interlachen par-4
12. 14th-Olympia Fields par-4
13. 17th-Oakland Hills par-3
14. 17th-The Country Club(Oh) par-4
15. 4th-Lido par-5
16. 10th-Winged Foot par-3
17. 13th-The Country Club(Mass) par-4
18. 7th-Ekwanok par-5

[Bill Brightly]

I think 11 is an wonderful hole.  That green is a virtual island - surrounded by Cobb's Creek, bunkers, and gnarly rough.  It's a very, very intimidating 2nd shot.

Dan,

If you are going to play Ran's game, you can't just defend 11. You have to pick a worst hole!

[Bill Shotzbarger]

I love the 11th (and its sister hole on the West course, #7).

I would agree with Sean that #2 is the "worst". #4, on the other hand, is an amazing hole in my book. That wedge shot off a downhill lie to a well surrounded green is so much harder than the pros made it look.

[DMoriarty]

Rich,

Weren't sections of NGLA a swamp ?

Yet CBM routed, planned and built holes there.

Besides, he had Raynor and Francis to take care of those issues

Patrick,  It is hard to tell with Rich, but my assumption was that he was trying to be facetious.   Regardless, neither CBM nor Barker planned the layout of the 11th green.  The 11th green was added in 1923 by Wilson.  Merion didn't control the property for the 11th green or 12th tee when the course was originally planned. 
________________________________________________________________

Rich, 

The speculative factota of its genesis?  Nice turn of a phrase.  Is "factota" supposed to be the plural of factotum?  If so then I definitely don't understand.   

[Rich Goodale]

Mr Ran, I wonder if when you penned this topic you remembered this old Tom MacWood thread about RTJ's 1942 eclectic 18 which included the 11th at Merion?!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43458.0.html



RTJ's eclectic 18 from LIFE magazine July 20, 1942:

1. 13th-Pine Valley par-4
2. 11th-Merion par-4
3. 10th-Greenbriar(Old White) par-4
4. 18th-Pinehurst #2 par-4
5. 13th-Augusta Nat'l. par-5
6. 13th-Belleview Biltmore par-4
7. 6th-Dallas par-3
8. 18th-Pebble Beach par-5
9. 16th-Cypress Point par-3

10. 18th-Cherry Hills par-4
11. 11th-Interlachen par-4
12. 14th-Olympia Fields par-4
13. 17th-Oakland Hills par-3
14. 17th-The Country Club(Oh) par-4
15. 4th-Lido par-5
16. 10th-Winged Foot par-3
17. 13th-The Country Club(Mass) par-4
18. 7th-Ekwanok par-5

Philip

That's why we in the branches don't particularly like RTJ in this treehouse

Rich

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

Weren't sections of NGLA a swamp ?

Yet CBM routed, planned and built holes there.

Besides, he had Raynor and Francis to take care of those issues

Patrick,  It is hard to tell with Rich, but my assumption was that he was trying to be facetious.   Regardless, neither CBM nor Barker planned the layout of the 11th green.  The 11th green was added in 1923 by Wilson.  Merion didn't control the property for the 11th green or 12th tee when the course was originally planned. 
________________________________________________________________

Rich, 

The speculative factota of its genesis?  Nice turn of a phrase.  Is "factota" supposed to be the plural of factotum?  If so then I definitely don't understand.   

Yo, Prof.  Moriarty!  Still  driyng yourself off after that nasty slip over the Reichenbach Falls?  I assume that "factota" is the plural of factotum, but I could be hideously wrong.  Regardless. I agree with you that it was a good turn of a phrase, which was all it was meant to be.....

[Matthew Petersen]

If there was a criticism of the current set-up, could it be that three of the par 3's play similar ?

I think this is a very good point.   Originally, Merion had good balance between the par 3's.  By design they were all different distances, approx. 130, 160, 190, and 220.   Now except for the 13th, it seems they are more concerned with distance and resistance to scoring than maintaining variety.

That said, in the context of Ran's question it is hard to call any of the three longer par threes the weakest hole.  They are all very good holes.  But the course as a whole might be a bit better if Merion had maintained a bit more variety in their lengths. 

3, 9, and 17 do look pretty similar on the scorecard, but based on my viewing it seemed they managed to play differently. With the exception of one day when the tee was up, 3 was all hybrids, metal woods, and even drivers. 9 was mid to long irons. 17 was a real mix based on tee location and hole location, with everything from mid irons to hybrids and metal woods hit there throughout the week.

But I don't know how those holes play from member tees.

[ChipOat]

Ran,

Assuming you are not starting your round on #11, you are able to check out the hole location on that green when playing #10.

To be honest, neither I, nor anyone I have ever played with ever really though that information was critical to know.  All we wanted to do was be in the fairway!  The angle to the hole on that green was not significant enough for our modest abilities.

BTW, I have my own opinion re: your question, but it is different than yours.

Chip

[Dan Herrmann]

From Tom Paul:
--------------------

 
"Ran Morrissett, you architecturally incompetent slut, don't you even know that Merion East is one of those rare golf courses of the world that does not have a "worst" hole?
 
Every single hole on that Wilson (Lloyd, Francis, Griscom, Toulmin), Barker, Macdonald, Whigam, Flynn, J. Valentine, Jacques, R. Valentine, (Maxwell), Kittleman, Hanse, Fazio golf course holds its head up with all the others. And if one doesn't for some reason someone like Matt Shaffer will just grab it by its furry little mane and make it hold its head as high as the rest. However, unless someone, one of these years, enlarges that water egress pipe behind that green that takes all the rain water off the course, that little 11th green is just going to flat out drown deader than a Siamese smelt. Just before the start of this US Open Mother F. Nature did her level best to water-board that cute little 11th green up to her eyeballs or beyond.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I assume that "factota" is the plural of factotum, but I could be hideously wrong. 

First, a factotum isn't a what it's a who. Second, it's not even factotum -- it's factotor.

Anyway, the worst hole at "US Open Merion" was the 14th. They never should have taken down the stop sign.