Bifurcation

[Mac Plumart]

I didn't mark this an OT (off-topic) thread, because I think the rules of golf and what is allowed on the field of play impacts the game and the courses architects lay out.

Having said that, for some reason I get frustrated with the pack of people who say that the ball can't be rolled back because golf is one of the only games that the Amateurs play under the exact same rules as the Pros.  And that adopting two sets of rules (bifurcation), will ruin this aspect of the game.  I say HOGWASH!  The game is already bifurcated.

-The PGA Pros have to walk...every day golfers can take a cart.  (this lessens the affect of rugged terrain on the golfer and his ability to hit shots down the stretch, due to fatigue).

-Range finders...Pros can't use them on the course, amateurs can.  (This lessens the architects ability to uses design features to disguise shot requirements and distances.)

Any others you can think of?  I've got a couple more.

[Sam Morrow]

I didn't mark this an OT (off-topic) thread, because I think the rules of golf and what is allowed on the field of play impacts the game and the courses architects lay out.

Having said that, for some reason I get frustrated with the pack of people who say that the ball can't be rolled back because golf is one of the only games that the Amateurs play under the exact same rules as the Pros.  And that adopting two sets of rules (bifurcation), will ruin this aspect of the game.  I say HOGWASH!  The game is already bifurcated.

-The PGA Pros have to walk...every day golfers can take a cart.  (this lessens the affect of rugged terrain on the golfer and his ability to hit shots down the stretch, due to fatigue).

-Range finders...Pros can't use them on the course, amateurs can.  (This lessens the architects ability to uses design features to disguise shot requirements and distances.)

Any others you can think of?  I've got a couple more.

You mean PGA Tour, some tours allow range finders and carts.

[Mac Plumart]

Yes, PGA Tour.  I said that in the thread...but didn't want to repeat it every time as to avoid being redundant redundant.

But, nevertheless, yes...PGA Tour.

[Mark Bourgeois]

They have to wear trousers during tournaments and they can wear cargo shorts when playing Merion.

[Phil McDade]

Mac:

I've long believed this and also attribute a lot of the problem to the demands of having a handicap system by elite players (not pros, really good players who keep handicaps -- a very small minority of the golfing public.)

[Brian Finn]

Also pertaining to the ball... the "one ball rule" is limited to professional and select amateur events as a condition of competition.

When changing balls, the player is permitted to substitute a ball of another brand or type unless the Committee has adopted the One Ball Condition of Competition (see Appendix I; Part C; Section 1c). This optional condition (usually referred to as ‘The One Ball Rule’) is generally adopted only in events that are limited to professional golfers or highly-skilled amateur golfers. Generally, this condition of competition is not adopted in club-level competitions.
 

[Mike_Young]

Is there another amateur body in sports that makes rules for a professional league?

It seems that every time someone comes out and doesn't agree with the USGA they are looked upon as being anti-USGA.  LET ME BE CLEAR:  I AM NOT ANTI-USGA and I respect them in their place.  The problem I see is that they were not "built" for public golf and actually didn't really accept it until the 1970's if I am correct.  I think it is fine for the USGA to have it's rules and expect anyone playing in their events to abide by such.
But they need to stop interfering with golfers, course owners and others that wish to play and use a golf course without adhering to their rules.  We were pontificating this at Tom Paul's during Open week and I used the analogy of fly fishing.  Trout Unlimited may have certain things they require such as barbless hooks, release etc and that is fantastic.  BUT others may fish on the same stream using worms with a similar piece of equipment.  But they use the same stream and that is what we have to do with golf...USE THE COURSES...
The problem we have is getting more people to play.  Owners need tee times filled and if people wish to play a different game in order to fill those tee times then the USGA doesn't need to interfere.  They have every right to enforce their rules but they have no right to keep other groups from doing the same.

[Brian Finn]

Groove Rules (put into place in 2010 as Condition of Competition) will not be a permanent equipment specification in the rules of golf until 2024 at the earliest.

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

I think that as in other matters, also here generalizations are not good. The statements seem to be very USA focused. There are other places in the world where the facts described are not applicable. For example, in my country the vast majority of clubs do not allow carts nor range finders. In addition, handicap is a must if you want to play golf around here. I know that we are a microscopic proportion of golfers compared with the US, but every change in the rules has an impact all over the world. That is why sometimes changes that would be good for some jurisdictions, would have a negative impact in others. Just to be clear, I am not arguing against the proposal. Only trying to show you that there can be other points of view that are not being considered.

[Richard Choi]

Mac, you are missing the most obvious bifurcation - multiple tees!!!

You and I do not play from the same distance as the pros. If allowing different tees is not considered bifurcation, then using distance restricted golf balls should be treated the same way since they accomplish the exact same thing.

[Mac Plumart]

there can be other points of view that are not being considered

Ricardo...YES!  

That is why I started this topic.  To discuss it.  All opinions are welcome in this discussion.

[BHoover]

Clothing is an area of bifurcation.

On the one hand, although you have guys like Rickie Fowler (the sunkist orange look) and Billy Horschel (the octopus's garden look), the pros tend to wear clothing.  On the other hand, you have far too many dudes who choose to go shirtless (I suppose you could throw in Jophn Daly).

This is one area where bifurcation is no good.

 

In all seriousness, I am all in favor of bifurcation.  I'd be fine with a tournament ball (it's not unheard of as the R&A and USGA used different balls in the past).  I'd also be fine with the PGA Tour refusing to adopt the anchored putting ban.

[Bryan Icenhower]

I am confused by the anti-bifurcation stance when there are "local" rules that means that someone playing in one area is playing under different rules than another area. 

Lee Janzen was Dq'd b/c of steel spikes, at a USGA event nonetheless, when others weren't at the same USGA event (sectional qualifier) albeit at a different location.

[A.G._Crockett]

Mac,
Aren't these options rather than rules per se?  I can choose to ride OR walk in a casual round.  I can choose to use a rangefinder or not in a casual round, just as a professional might  (Whether or not I can use the rangefinder in a tournament is up to the committee, of course, and on Tour you can't; in the Senior club championship I can! ).  I can choose to play the tips or play it forward. 

Pros have caddies to carry their sticks, have ultra-detailed yardage books and pin sheets, and the tees are moved daily to give them different yardages to contend with.

I don't think anybody has ever contended that everybody is playing golf under precisely the same conditions.  The difference in course conditions/ratings and the handicap system alone guarantee that, as do things like different green speeds or even the type of grass on the greens. 

But all of that is quite a different thing, at least IMO, from true bifurcation of equipment.

[Matthew Petersen]

There's a gulf between casual rounds of golf and tournament golf. In my experience, organized tournament golf even down to the amateur and junior level is really quite similar to the spirit of a PGA tournament. Walking only, no distance aids, etc.

With that said, that's also why I don't particularly worry about bifurcation if it does happen. Most weekend warriors don't fancy themselves to be pros. They'll hit their Top Flites and play with whatever clubs they want, ignoring and creating rules here and there to fit their needs. More serious players, or those who fancy themselves to be anyway, can play with a tournament ball if they think they'll one day have to use it in some qualifying event, and they'll continue to putt everything out, count their clubs in the parking lot, etc. It actually works well as a very diverse game.

[Mac Plumart]

AG...

I don't think so. The PGA pros CANNOT ride or use lasers in competition.  Period.

Recreational golfers can choose to walk or ride, just like amateur baseball can choose to use wood or aluminum bats. But MLBers cannot use aluminum.

 Bifurcated rules.

[Jonathan Mallard]

AG...

I don't think so. The PGA pros CANNOT ride or use lasers in competition.  Period.

Recreational golfers can choose to walk or ride, just like amateur baseball can choose to use wood or aluminum bats. But MLBers cannot use aluminum.

 Bifurcated rules.

I get this is picking a nit, but 7 Non USGA members disagreed with you and have said that Casey Martin can.

[Bill Brightly]

OK Mac, I grant you the power to bifurcate. Where do you start? PGA events? What about the Web.Com (developmental) tour? Doen't that give an advantage to existing pros versus up and coming young amateurs turning pro who now must adjust to pro golf AND a new ball?

What about the European and other foreign tours?

College golf? Senior tour?

[Mac Plumart]

Bill...

I'm not arguing for or against bifurcation.  I'm simply saying the rules are already bifurcated.  So using the argument that we can't roll the ball back because we can't bifurcate the rules isn't a valid argument.

With that, I think a serious discussion needs to take place regarding playing a "tournament" ball for PGA events...at a minimum.  But I'm not opposed to doing that for all professional tours, kinda of like professional baseball players cannot use aluminum bats while collegiate players can.