Merion "manipulated" (?)

[DMoriarty]

I think the fifteenth has always been very tight against the road.  In fact there used to fairway tighter to the road until much closer to the green. The difference now is that there is less room to bail out right, and the tee has been pushed way, way back and to the right, so the drive is much more difficult.  

The original tee on the 15th was behind the 14th green and next to the road.  So one wasn't set up aiming at the road.  Merion has added about 100 yards to the yardage from the tips, and the angle has been drastically changed so the drive is set up facing the out of bounds.  

[Ed Brzezowski]

I think the fifteenth has always been very tight against the road.  In fact there used to fairway tighter to the road until much closer to the green. The difference now is that there is less room to bail out right, and the tee has been pushed way, way back and to the right, so the drive is much more difficult.  

The original tee on the 15th was behind the 14th green and next to the road.  So one wasn't set up aiming at the road.  Merion has added about 100 yards to the yardage from the tips, and the angle has been drastically changed so the drive is set up facing the out of bounds.  

It is also true of 6, the tee box points you dead right towards ob.

[Mike Sweeney]

And BTW, #15 at Merion the way it's set up is a STUPID hole.  Just stupid.  If you're going to set it up like that, instead of cutting down the posts, the USGA should have build a low, stone wall (maybe 2.5 feet) so balls could be stopped.  It's asinine that Sergio, one of the best drivers in the game, is hitting 7 off the tee.  He ain't that bad; it's that Mike Davis is that bad.

Agree about 15. I've never seen an O.B. two steps from a fairway on any golf course, anywhere. I've got no bitch about the setup of the golf course in general, but 15 is not a U.S. Open hole.

Rick,

Have you ever played the hole? It is a dogleg right after a dogleg left #14. The left side is the preferred side and the road has always been there along with the post.

Left side = preferred angle into the green, but risk OB.

Right side = tough angle, have to fly the bunkers, deal with rough, but no OB.

If it was not stuck between 14 and 16, it would be the best hole at a bunch of really nice courses, imo.

[Mike Sweeney]

The original tee on the 15th was behind the 14th green and next to the road.  So one wasn't set up aiming at the road.  Merion has added about 100 yards to the yardage from the tips, and the angle has been drastically changed so the drive is set up facing the out of bounds.  

What year was this?

[Ulrich Mayring]

They could grow the rough some 10 yards in on the left. Then no one can complain that 2 yards off the fairway is OOB

Ulrich

[Ed Brzezowski]

Mike,
You are very wise. It's a great hole.

[Rick Shefchik]

And BTW, #15 at Merion the way it's set up is a STUPID hole.  Just stupid.  If you're going to set it up like that, instead of cutting down the posts, the USGA should have build a low, stone wall (maybe 2.5 feet) so balls could be stopped.  It's asinine that Sergio, one of the best drivers in the game, is hitting 7 off the tee.  He ain't that bad; it's that Mike Davis is that bad.

Agree about 15. I've never seen an O.B. two steps from a fairway on any golf course, anywhere. I've got no bitch about the setup of the golf course in general, but 15 is not a U.S. Open hole.

Rick,

Have you ever played the hole? It is a dogleg right after a dogleg left #14. The left side is the preferred side and the road has always been there along with the post.

Left side = preferred angle into the green, but risk OB.

Right side = tough angle, have to fly the bunkers, deal with rough, but no OB.

If it was not stuck between 14 and 16, it would be the best hole at a bunch of really nice courses, imo.

No, Mike, I've never played it. Is the fairway always as narrow as it is this week? The idea of a worse angle from the right side is great GCA, but not if the fairway is so narrow you're almost guaranteed to be in the rough if you hit away from OB.

[jeffwarne]

Oh good lord -- Davis has a 98-yard par 3 today (13th). That's just......silly.

129 yards in 1971
Nicklaus hit 8 iron.

Somebody enjoys the limelight

[Mike Sweeney]

No, Mike, I've never played it. Is the fairway always as narrow as it is this week? The idea of a worse angle from the right side is great GCA, but not if the fairway is so narrow you're almost guaranteed to be in the rough if you hit away from OB.

I am watching too, but we can assume it is narrower this week. Growing up, I was a slicer. Somehow I always learned to hit a hook 2-3 times a year on 14 and 15.   That fairway has always been tight on 15, and was always a 3 wood for me, which meant that I had to go left of the bunkers, be careful of the road. The tee sits high above the fairway, so it is a precise tee shot.

I am curious to the year that David is mentioning when 15 tee was along the road. Similar to Yale 6, the "new" tees added length and a driving angle and I would say made both holes better, imo.

[Mike Sweeney]

The posts are there to keep drunks and teenagers bent on vandalism from wrecking the course.  They're not there for drives.  Maybe seconds shots in the gutta percha days, but not drives. 

You are correct, but I honestly can't believe you are saying this. Does the world need another stone wall to shut out the masses from a fancy golf club? Merion is right there to see, walk along, and i am sure a few have pulled out of their cars and hit a shot or two on 14, 15, 16. Ardmore Avenue is pretty busy, so not much they can do there.

No walls at Merion please.

[Mike Hendren]

I have been critical of Davis and the USGA set-up squad in the past, but I have no problem with what they've done at Merion.  After three full days on site, I came away with the impression that Merion, as it sits today, is perhaps the finest golf course I've set foot on.  I saw plenty of deft pitches from short-side rough and almost invariably players were able to advance the ball 150 yards back into the fairway when needed - a legitimate half-stroke penalty.  From my spot on the back row of the bleachers behind the 14th green, I'd say the majority of players bailing out right off the 15th tee hit the green with their second shots and that fairway is among the widest on the course IF one lays back slightly off the tee.  Strategy at its finest.  

The movement in the greens is astonishing and much under-estimated.  The movement, the fast speeds and the players' unfamiliarity with pin locations led to the  most missed putts than I've ever seen.  Watch closely today and tomorrow - you will be astonished at how many putts from 20 feet in are badly missed. That, and there are so few dead straight opportunities for 30 foot bombs - there just won't be any.

With the exception of the shifting of the 2nd fairway, I don't believe any criticism is warranted.    The golf course is brilliant, and the set-up reasonable.

Bogey

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

I think the tee was behind the 14th green and along the road through the 1916 Amateur at least.  I think the angle was changed some time before the mid-1920's.   I haven't gone back to check the documentation.  Remember that (until very recently and maybe still for some) 16th fairway used to rap around the quarry on the right where the tee is now.  I suspect that fairway was used a lot more then than now.

As for whether it is a better hole with the tee set directly toward the out of bounds, I'll take your word for it, but it would be difficult to say without having played the original under the original conditions, don't you think?

[DMoriarty]

You are correct, but I honestly can't believe you are saying this. Does the world need another stone wall to shut out the masses from a fancy golf club? Merion is right there to see, walk along, and i am sure a few have pulled out of their cars and hit a shot or two on 14, 15, 16. Ardmore Avenue is pretty busy, so not much they can do there.

No walls at Merion please.

I agree.  Not that I would ever have done anything like this, but it is a very easy course to access for anyone who might be taking a leisurely stroll around the neighborhood.

[Mike Sweeney]

1. Remember that (until very recently and maybe still for some) 16th fairway used to rap around the quarry on the right where the tee is now.  I suspect that fairway was used a lot more then than now.

2. As for whether it is a better hole with the tee set directly toward the out of bounds, I'll take your word for it, but it would be difficult to say without having played the original under the original conditions, don't you think?

1. I think it still does? Merion has always had a very active ladies program, and the wrap around was always known at the ladies fairway. Goodness knows I should have taken that path more than once.

2. I love dog left followed by dog right, so I reserve my right to have my own opinion on this one !

[Mike Sweeney]

I agree.  Not that I would ever have done anything like this, but it is a very easy course to access for anyone who might be taking a leisurely stroll around the neighborhood.

Well there is another issue that you just don't understand about Philly! I had the privilege of getting tossed by Bill Kittleman ! Actually on the other side of Ardmore Avenue....

[DMoriarty]

Well there is another issue that you just don't understand about Philly! I had the privilege of getting tossed by Bill Kittleman ! Actually on the other side of Ardmore Avenue....

And something you just don't understand about me if you believe the first clause above. I used to live easy walking distance from the course.

[William_G]

Oh good lord -- Davis has a 98-yard par 3 today (13th). That's just......silly.

love that actually

[Sean_A]

And BTW, #15 at Merion the way it's set up is a STUPID hole.  Just stupid.  If you're going to set it up like that, instead of cutting down the posts, the USGA should have build a low, stone wall (maybe 2.5 feet) so balls could be stopped.  It's asinine that Sergio, one of the best drivers in the game, is hitting 7 off the tee.  He ain't that bad; it's that Mike Davis is that bad.

Agree about 15. I've never seen an O.B. two steps from a fairway on any golf course, anywhere. I've got no bitch about the setup of the golf course in general, but 15 is not a U.S. Open hole.

Rick

Hoylake used to be loaded with these sorts of holes.  A few still exist - most famously the opener.  I know of other examples - you need to get out more.  If there is going to be OOB used on a hole to help create the strategy, why not hard against a green or fairway (or both in the case of Hoylake's 1st)?

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Oh good lord -- Davis has a 98-yard par 3 today (13th). That's just......silly.

love that actually

So do I, but with a back pin. Let's see them hit it in there with no spin...

[DMoriarty]

It is also true of 6, the tee box points you dead right towards ob.

The sixth pointing toward the out of bounds was more consistent with the original strategic concept of the golf hole.  The 6th was intended to be (and reported to be) Merion's version of a famous Road hole, with the tee shot requiring a play over the corner of a corn field instead of the shed.  The player was asked to cut off as much of the corner as he could in order to get closer to the green and to avoid the "pit" at the front left corner of the green.  

It has been interesting watching the play today and seeing golfers get jammed up short and left of the green.

[Jim Nugent]

I've never seen an O.B. two steps from a fairway on any golf course, anywhere. I've got no bitch about the setup of the golf course in general, but 15 is not a U.S. Open hole.

I think 18 at Carnoustie is similar, off the left side of the green. 

[Rick Shefchik]

And BTW, #15 at Merion the way it's set up is a STUPID hole.  Just stupid.  If you're going to set it up like that, instead of cutting down the posts, the USGA should have build a low, stone wall (maybe 2.5 feet) so balls could be stopped.  It's asinine that Sergio, one of the best drivers in the game, is hitting 7 off the tee.  He ain't that bad; it's that Mike Davis is that bad.

Agree about 15. I've never seen an O.B. two steps from a fairway on any golf course, anywhere. I've got no bitch about the setup of the golf course in general, but 15 is not a U.S. Open hole.

Rick

Hoylake used to be loaded with these sorts of holes.  A few still exist - most famously the opener.  I know of other examples - you need to get out more.  If there is going to be OOB used on a hole to help create the strategy, why not hard against a green or fairway (or both in the case of Hoylake's 1st)?

Ciao

Sean,

Admittedly it would do me a lot of good to see more British and Irish courses. I'm still hoping to do so.

I still believe, however, that having OB two steps from a fairway or green is not a good way to lay out a golf hole. The older the course and the more hemmed in it is by its surroundings, the more excusable it is. But would you design a new course that way?

[Sean_A]

And BTW, #15 at Merion the way it's set up is a STUPID hole.  Just stupid.  If you're going to set it up like that, instead of cutting down the posts, the USGA should have build a low, stone wall (maybe 2.5 feet) so balls could be stopped.  It's asinine that Sergio, one of the best drivers in the game, is hitting 7 off the tee.  He ain't that bad; it's that Mike Davis is that bad.

Agree about 15. I've never seen an O.B. two steps from a fairway on any golf course, anywhere. I've got no bitch about the setup of the golf course in general, but 15 is not a U.S. Open hole.

Rick

Hoylake used to be loaded with these sorts of holes.  A few still exist - most famously the opener.  I know of other examples - you need to get out more.  If there is going to be OOB used on a hole to help create the strategy, why not hard against a green or fairway (or both in the case of Hoylake's 1st)?

Ciao

Sean,

Admittedly it would do me a lot of good to see more British and Irish courses. I'm still hoping to do so.

I still believe, however, that having OB two steps from a fairway or green is not a good way to lay out a golf hole. The older the course and the more hemmed in it is by its surroundings, the more excusable it is. But would you design a new course that way?

The reason OOB tight on a playing corridor is no longer considered kosher is due to safety considerations, not for strategic design purposes.  Thats the world we live in.  But the only great use of OOB I know of is when OOB is hard on the playing corridor.  Thats what makes the remaining Hoylake OOB holes so good, there is no road to worry about.  The last really good use of OOB I saw was at Seascale.

We now come to one of the best holes I seen in quite some time; perhaps the brightest star of Seacroft.  This hole goes a long way to encapsulating the biggest difference between modern and classic design.  Often times design of 100+ years ago highlighted non-golf related man-made features.  The road here is a perfect example and great use of OOB.  Hug tight to the road and one is rewarded with a view of the flag and a good angle of approach.  The safe left side leaves a blind and awkward second because a mound shy of the green must be dealt with.  This is a very simple design construct, but highly effective.  The road gives the added element of satisfaction to the player who gambles successfully.  


Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Sean,

Great analogy and it is scary to think that Merion may have been BETTER when the holes crossed Ardmore Avenue.

Brad Klein wrote an article about #15:


http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jun/11/us-open-2013-merion-15th-hole-double-cross/

I love this hole. I love how it forces players to commit. On a golf course squeezed into a confined landscape, the 15th hole is a great example of using the terrain, integrating with the boundaries of the property, making golfers think and making them worry about disaster. There’s a basic rule of world-class play: “no negative thoughts.” The 15th at Merion breeds all of the wrong ideas in a golfer’s mind

Maybe that’s unkind. Maybe that’s unfair.

After all, the 15th at Merion plays favorites. It favors a smart player.

There is a good photo essay on GW too.

[BHoover]

I've never played Merion, and probably never will, but I absolutely love the course and I'm not that far from loving the setup by the USGA. The US Open has always (in my lifetime) been about creating a stern, punishing test. In my opinion, I like seeing the pros struggle to find fairways and deal with scary-fast greens. Would I want to see that all the time?...no. But I have no problem with the USGA narrowing the fairways and growing the rough. The course belongs to the members, not us, so if they are okay with the USGA implementing the setup, who am I to criticize?

As for Zach Johnson, sorry, he's just bitter that he struggled and missed the cut. Would be be complaining if he was atop the leaderboard? Does he criticize ANGC for manipulating their course? I haven't heard him say anything openly. To say that the USGA manipulates a course but not to call out ANGC is, IMO, the height of hypocrisy.