Great Architecture Debate w/ Geoff Shackelford on Golf Channel at 6PM ET

[Chip Gaskins]

Very good banter between Geoff and David Fay.  Geoff is taking them to task.

[John McCarthy]

I missed it.

Can anyone relate the substance of the conversation.  

And please omit everything Fenstein said.

[Mark Saltzman]

Missed it too.  Will it be re-aired?

[Mark Bourgeois]

GS also said the referendum on distance isn't rendered moot by the soft conditions; rather, the setup itself provides the verdict.

[Ben Sims]

GS also said the referendum on distance isn't rendered moot by the soft conditions; rather, the setup itself provides the verdict.

I love him for saying it, but the golf course was supposed to get shredded even if it was fast and dry for this to occur.  Now, "it's all the weather's fault."

[Tony Ristola]

GS basically said the USGA bastardized the integrity of the architecture and turned the fairways into dew paths to protect par and Fay and Feinstein - kissing ass extraordinaire and refusing to bite the hand that feeds them - threw a gentlemanly fit and said the course is great the way it is with the super narrow fairways and that it will produce a great champion and that Merion is just fine the way it is (neglecting to mention, of course, that what they're playing this week is NOT Merion, but rather some sort of air-brushed bizarro version that actually makes the great lady look UGLIER instead of prettier).

Shivas... spot on.

By bastardize... GS said they narrowed the fairways so much the golfers couldn't pick the optimal side of the fairway to attack from.

This bit sort of surprised me; Fay was obviously irritated by Geoff's correct analysis, and basically tried to tell him to shut up on the issue. So much for trying to educate the public about golf architecture.

[Greg Taylor]

...but rather some sort of air-brushed bizarro version that actually makes the great lady look UGLIER instead of prettier.

great turn of phrase there - well done!

[Sean Leary]

Think this was the the 19th hole segment.

While I understand Geoff's point, and I agree with him on many levels, I thought he came off as kind of, well whiny. Whiny probably isn't the right word, but I can't seem to explain it any other way.

My though on the set up is this. As long as they return it to pre Open widths etc, then I don't care. Do I want to play Merion set up that way? Nope. But for a US Open once every X years, I actually like it.

[Anthony Butler]

GS basically said the USGA bastardized the integrity of the architecture and turned the fairways into dew paths to protect par and Fay and Feinstein - kissing ass extraordinaire and refusing to bite the hand that feeds them - threw a gentlemanly fit and said the course is great the way it is with the super narrow fairways and that it will produce a great champion and that Merion is just fine the way it is (neglecting to mention, of course, that what they're playing this week is NOT Merion, but rather some sort of air-brushed bizarro version that actually makes the great lady look UGLIER instead of prettier).

Shivas... spot on.

By bastardize... GS said they narrowed the fairways so much the golfers couldn't pick the optimal side of the fairway to attack from.

This bit sort of surprised me; Fay was obviously irritated by Geoff's correct analysis, and basically tried to tell him to shut up on the issue. So much for trying to educate the public about golf architecture.

Not sure what it proves...  John Nieporte via the statistics kept on the USOpen site was number two  in fairways hit for the field yet third last in scoring... He was a little shorter off the tee than field average, but not much. Maybe he just needs a new set of irons.

[Tony Ristola]

Think this was the the 19th hole segment.

While I understand Geoff's point, and I agree with him on many levels, I thought he came off as kind of, well whiny. Whiny probably isn't the right word, but I can't seem to explain it any other way.

My though on the set up is this. As long as they return it to pre Open widths etc, then I don't care. Do I want to play Merion set up that way? Nope. But for a US Open once every X years, I actually like it.

I'm sure it's not easy being the lone wolf criticizing the setup of a course many are slobbering about. Geoff's point was beyond valid and it's great he stated it. If not Geoff... who? I haven't heard anyone state the architecture has been compromised by the setup.

It would be interesting to have had the course setup more along the lines the architect intended. Guys picking and choosing lines of attack instead of simply trying to hit fairways... the green sites & hole locations alone seem to be ample defense, even when soft.

[Sean Leary]

Think this was the the 19th hole segment.

While I understand Geoff's point, and I agree with him on many levels, I thought he came off as kind of, well whiny. Whiny probably isn't the right word, but I can't seem to explain it any other way.

My though on the set up is this. As long as they return it to pre Open widths etc, then I don't care. Do I want to play Merion set up that way? Nope. But for a US Open once every X years, I actually like it.

I'm sure it's not easy being the lone wolf criticizing the setup of a course many are slobbering about. Geoff's point was beyond valid and it's great he stated it. If not Geoff... who? I haven't heard anyone state the architecture has been compromised by the setup.

It would be interesting to have had the course setup more along the lines the architect intended. Guys picking and choosing lines of attack instead of simply trying to hit fairways... the green sites & hole locations alone seem to be ample defense, even when soft.

You will have that setup when the Open is over. They have been setting up The US Open courses like this forever. They narrowed  the fairways by 3 to 5 yards more than they normally do at US Opens because of the length. This isn't set up for you and me. It's set up for guys that hit it straighter than pros did 32 years ago. It is making the players think. If it was set up wide with angles it would be a bomb and gauge deal and we hate that too.

It's a US Open, not at GCA event.

[Jeff Goldman]

There appear to be at least 5 holes with approaches that could be in the 220-250 range--3 par 3s, 5 and 18. 6 too for some. That strikes me as a lot.

[Sean Leary]

There appear to be at least 5 holes with approaches that could be in the 220-250 range--3 par 3s, 5 and 18. 6 too for some. That strikes me as a lot.

Jeff, 5, 6 and 18 would have played much shorter if it was dry.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tony Ristola,

Most GCA participants, as you know, are well aware of the pros and cons of US Open setups.

Regarding the specifics of Merion, can you provide three examples (holes) where play would have been better with fairways ten or more yards wider?

Which holes would you select? What are the different choices players would have made? How would the competition been affected?

By the way, I don't know Merion that well (walked it twice), but the setup for #2 stands out the most. The bunkers in the rough looks weird (and I say that as someone generally supportive of USGA setups). More to the point, more fairway to the left would surely mean more guys going for the green in two.

[Bill Brightly]

That's precisely right, Tony,

I almost threw up last night when I heard Mike Davis say that they set up the course "By asking ourselves 'what did the architect try to make the players do here?'  Where did he want them to hit it?  That's how we set up the course."

What a load of unadulterated BS.  He didn't follow the architectural intent at all.  Instead, what he did was TAKE AWAY options the architect intended the player to have.

So either Davis simply doesn't understand architectural intent, or he's flat out fibbing  because it sounds better than "I created FrankenMerion because I was concerned that the traditional Merion was going to get slaughtered by these guys".

Shivas, I agree with just about everything that you have said but to be a bit fair to Davis, by pinching the fairways and taking driver out of the players hands, the set up does help capture the LENGTH of the approach shot that the architect intended. I agree that the angles are lost.