US Open sites--west of the Mississippi

[Kevin Stark]

The amount of rain and the drainage aren't the issues, especially at that site. It's the ability of the turf to grow well because of cool weather, lack of sunlight, etc. lasting deep into the spring. Courses out there fight moss on greens like mad during the winter, for instance, because the turf just doesn't want to grow and moss does. I don't know if CB fights that problem specifically, but I distinctly remember that problem being pervasive at other courses in the region. June can just be iffy. Many years it's fantastic but it isn't always. They probably need two months of good growing weather to be ready in June. La Nina years can draw out winter pretty late in the year in the Puget Sound and that's my concern.

I wasn't there for the U.S. Am...my information was second- and third-hand. Most of what I heard was about the severity of the green complexes, some of which have been softened since then, and the condition of the greens. Dottie's review is a bit extreme. I'm not a fan of the course myself, but I don't hate it by any means. My chief complaint is that the soil and turf are designed for the ground game but the green complexes are designed for an aerial game. Any time I tried to run up approach shots, they would hit into the front of the green complex and come backwards. Alternatively, I would fly the ball onto the green and watch it bound over the back. It wasn't like Bandon, where there's always a path to get to the hole, even if it's not a straight path. It's also nearly impossible to walk...and I say that as someone who used to walk 36 a day at Gold Mountain.

And by "it wasn't very good", I mean the conditions weren't very good. I thought the fairways and greens were really thin, even accounting for the fact that they were fescue.

[William_G]

]

Not sure what this means?  Is Chambers bay a GCA sponsored course?  favorite? 
I was at the US AM and it was not well received by the players. . 

The players being happy with a course should not be a major factor if the USGA is going to really fulfill their mission.

Links style golf on fescue is the way golf was meant to be , yet folks such as Rory don't like and most young American golfers have never played it.

[William_G]

I know it'll never happen, but how great would it be to see these guys battling the summer winds and F&F turf at Old Mac or Pac Dunes? 

it would be fantastic

[Ben Sims]

Kevin,

Your points have no basis in reality.  I'm playing Chambers tomorrow and I'm willing to bet that the surface is on par (or better) than Merion this week and Bethpage in '09.  Then again, I guess the US Open prefers mudballs and 5 inch bluegrass.  

I guess I just don't know why your experience with the greens at Chambers generally assumes that it is a poor venue for the US Open.  I also don't understand your generic dislike and misunderstanding of Chambers Bay as viable location for a major.  It pains me to see so many make so many ridiculous consolations for Merion this week, and be unwilling to make even the most basic consolations for CB.  It's going to be a terrific golf course for the Open.

And by the way, the next time I need a solvent opinion on golf courses, I'll be sure to ask Dottie Pepper.  Ha!  

[Matthew Essig]

Kevin,

Your points have no basis in reality.  I'm playing Chambers tomorrow and I'm willing to bet that the surface is on par (or better) than Merion this week and Bethpage in '09.  Then again, I guess the US Open prefers mudballs and 5 inch bluegrass.  

I guess I just don't know why your experience with the greens at Chambers generally assumes that it is a poor venue for the US Open.  I also don't understand your generic dislike and misunderstanding of Chambers Bay as viable location for a major.  It pains me to see so many make so many ridiculous consolations for Merion this week, and be unwilling to make even the most basic consolations for CB.  It's going to be a terrific golf course for the Open.

And by the way, the next time I need a solvent opinion on golf courses, I'll be sure to ask Dottie Pepper.  Ha!  

+1

[Jud_T]

Haven't played CB, but I loved watching the Am there.  Yeah they might have gotten a bit over the edge on a couple holes but that's why they have the Am at a potential venue before the Open, to sort out the kinks.  Short grass is the best hazard in the game and these guys are certainly good enough to figure out how to use it to their advantage if they put in the time.  God forbid there might be a bit of rub of the green at a critical juncture in the proceedings.  Perhaps we should simply hold the Open at a driving range.  Grow 9 inch rough and cut a 15 yard ribbon of "fairway" down the middle.  Then proceed to a perfectly flat putting green developed by Nasa which runs at a consistent stimp of 16...

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't buy the lack of quality venue excuse at all. With the way USGA sets up the course, any course with required length can host US Open. Torrey proved that point.

Pros are going to post really low scores at Merion, even though everyone agrees about its architectural pedigree.

There are many, many courses around the country that has the logistics and the venue to pull off a successful open without resorting to remote courses like Bandon.

Would you list just ten(10) of the "many, many" courses West of the Mississippi that can host a US Open ?

[Jim Nugent]

Pat:

Bellerive
Southern Hills
Hazeltine
Pebble
Chambers Bay
Olympic Lake
Torrey Pines
Riviera
Shadow Creek
Spyglass
Dallas National

[Phil McDade]

Pat:

Bellerive
Southern Hills
Hazeltine
Pebble
Chambers Bay
Olympic Lake
Torrey Pines
Riviera
Shadow Creek
Spyglass
Dallas National

Jim:

Good list -- is Shadow Creek feasible in June?

[Richard Choi]

Kevin, I would refrain from talking further about June playing conditions at Chambers as it seems you are basing your opinion on clay based courses around Seattle. Comparing Chambers to those course is like comparing Corvette to a station wagon. Yes, they both carry people, but only one can take the curves with confidence. I have seen Chambers playing firmer that the courses in the east in the middle of the summer in the middle of the winter out here.

As Brent Carlson would attest, I play the ground game every chance I get and practically every hole invites you to run up a ball via the ground. The only holes that don't are 7th (which actually is more friendly now after the changes), 13th, and 15th (par 3, but you can bring the ball back in from the sideboard). Hell, there is nothing cooler and more fun (anywhere, including Bandon) than laying up short of the bunkers at 10th (they are brutal), and hit a knockdown 5-wood that run up the slope in the front left and feed the ball to the middle of the green (this is the safest way to play the hole, as I have found).

And Pat, I can name at least 5 courses that could host the open in Seattle area alone that have, or have the potential length, to host the open here: Chambers, Olympic Course at Gold Mountain, Washington National, Hawk's Prairie Woodlands, and Loomis. You give those courses (sans Chambers) 25 yard wide fairways, 5 inch rough, and greens stimping at 14 (like they are at Merion), and the winning score will not break 5 under.

[Matthew Petersen]

Pat:

Bellerive
Southern Hills
Hazeltine
Pebble
Chambers Bay
Olympic Lake
Torrey Pines
Riviera
Shadow Creek
Spyglass
Dallas National

Jim:

Good list -- is Shadow Creek feasible in June?

Mid-June average highs are 98-102, with the potential of record heat that gets as high as 110 or more. Can't see the USGA wanting to subject players or fans to that.

[William_G]

if Hogan had won a US Open at Waverly while hitting a 1 iron on #18, I think we would have another site

the way the US Open has become so monetized there has become fewer locations in the west for the championship

[Carl Rogers]

Why doesn't the USGA, with all its gobs of $, just go buy some property, let's say not far from Kansas City and build themselves a a course that represents a middle of the country USGA event location.  They could use for a several of its championships during the year.

[Garland Bayley]

... It's also nearly impossible to walk...and I say that as someone who used to walk 36 a day at Gold Mountain.
...

I hope you understand how ridiculous that statement makes you look.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why doesn't the USGA, with all its gobs of $, just go buy some property, let's say not far from Kansas City and build themselves a a course that represents a middle of the country USGA event location. 

Would you be expecting galleries ?

Intense media coverage from the "Kansas City Star" "

They could use for a several of its championships during the year.

Yeah, it's probably easy to keep the same course in championship condition for the entire golfing seasoni

Carl, was this your idea or did Shivas put you up to this ?.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Bellerive
Southern Hills
Hazeltine
Pebble
Chambers Bay
Olympic Lake
Torrey Pines
Riviera
Shadow Creek
Spyglass
Dallas National


Jim, is your name "Richard Choi" ?

How many of those courses have you played ?

How many have the ability to accomodate a US Open in June ?

Shadow Creek ?

Spyglass ?

Bellerive ?

How has Hazeltine been received over the years ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin, I would refrain from talking further about June playing conditions at Chambers as it seems you are basing your opinion on clay based courses around Seattle. Comparing Chambers to those course is like comparing Corvette to a station wagon. Yes, they both carry people, but only one can take the curves with confidence. I have seen Chambers playing firmer that the courses in the east in the middle of the summer in the middle of the winter out here.

As Brent Carlson would attest, I play the ground game every chance I get and practically every hole invites you to run up a ball via the ground. The only holes that don't are 7th (which actually is more friendly now after the changes), 13th, and 15th (par 3, but you can bring the ball back in from the sideboard). Hell, there is nothing cooler and more fun (anywhere, including Bandon) than laying up short of the bunkers at 10th (they are brutal), and hit a knockdown 5-wood that run up the slope in the front left and feed the ball to the middle of the green (this is the safest way to play the hole, as I have found).

And Pat, I can name at least 5 courses that could host the open in Seattle area alone that have, or have the potential length, to host the open here: Chambers, Olympic Course at Gold Mountain, Washington National, Hawk's Prairie Woodlands, and Loomis. You give those courses (sans Chambers) 25 yard wide fairways, 5 inch rough, and greens stimping at 14 (like they are at Merion), and the winning score will not break 5 under.

Richard,

If  you think that all that's needed to host a U.S. Open is 25 yard fairways, 5 inch rough and greens stimping at 14, you don't have a firm grasp on what it takes to host a U.S. Open

How do the courses you listed rank in the top 100 courses in the U.S ?

How about top 100 Modern ?

[Pete_Pittock]

Why doesn't the USGA, with all its gobs of $, just go buy some property, let's say not far from Kansas City and build themselves a a course that represents a middle of the country USGA event location.  They could use for a several of its championships during the year.

Same rationale as why a state association will build a course. Usually does not work out, financially. AZ and OR

[Richard Choi]

Pat, other than Chambers and Olympic, none of the other courses would sniff the top 100 modern.

I still fail to see how a course with 7500+ yards of length with 25 yard wide fairways with 5 inch rough would fail to produce a champion with number less than 5 under or so. What does fairway bunkering and shapes matter at Merion when pros WANT to hit into the fairway instead of rough and the fairways are shaped NOTHING like what the designer intended? I don't understand why you need a top 100 course to host a US Open.

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, Bellerive has the space and infrastructure for the Open.  It's already held the Open and the PGA, plus what used to be called the Western Open and the U.S. Senior Open.  It's long enough, tough enough.  I played it -- decades ago -- and didn't think it was great, but Golf Magazine ranks it 87th in the U.S. 

Hazeltine: two Opens already.  Two PGAs, both after year 2000.  It's also held the U.S. Senior Open and the U.S. Amateur.  In 2016 it's holding the Ryder Cup.  It produced some dramatic tournaments, including Rich Beem's victory over Tiger.  Golf Mag ranks it 72nd in the U.S. 

Spyglass: we had a thread on this very topic a few years ago.  Posters who know the course well said it would make a great U.S. Open site, from every standpoint. 

I grant you Shadow Creek won't work because of the heat.  Deleting it still gives you ten courses on my list. 

[Tim_Cronin]

Why doesn't the USGA, with all its gobs of $, just go buy some property, let's say not far from Kansas City and build themselves a a course that represents a middle of the country USGA event location.  They could use for a several of its championships during the year.

This idea was kicked around by the USGA for a short time in the 1960s. Build one or two "U.S. Open" courses that could be either public or private courses when not hosting. In essence, USGA-TPC courses. But the idea never came close to the planning stage.

As for Whistling Straits and Erin Hills, the Straits is actually a little more distant from Milwaukee but easier to get to because of the nearby Interstate. Erin Hills, northwest, is accessible only by two-lane roads for the last 15 miles or so.

If I'm the USGA, I'm appealing to Bud Selig to have baseball schedule the Brewers for a road trip on U.S. Open week so the Miller Park parking lots can be used for the shuttle pickup. I played with the route on Mapquest (which first couldn't even find Erin, Wis.) and the best I can do is 47 minutes, 33.36 miles. Fun!

Among the closest hotels are those in Delafield, due south about 10 miles. That includes the posh Delafield Hotel, which, like Erin Hills, is no longer owned by Bob Lang.

[Jud_T]

Pat,
 
Do courses get the U.S. Open because they're in the top 100, or are courses in the top 100 because they've hosted the U.S. Open?

[Rick Shefchik]

Pat,
 
Do courses get the U.S. Open because they're in the top 100, or are courses in the top 100 because they've hosted the U.S. Open?

In some cases, neither. Hazeltine gets the U.S. Open (and, more recently, the PGA) because of its vast spaces for cars, tents, media, volunteers and spectators. Whoever said the Open is all about money must have been thinking of Hazeltine, because every major held there sets new records for revenue.

[Sean Leary]

Pat, other than Chambers and Olympic, none of the other courses would sniff the top 100 modern.

I still fail to see how a course with 7500+ yards of length with 25 yard wide fairways with 5 inch rough would fail to produce a champion with number less than 5 under or so. What does fairway bunkering and shapes matter at Merion when pros WANT to hit into the fairway instead of rough and the fairways are shaped NOTHING like what the designer intended? I don't understand why you need a top 100 course to host a US Open.

Richard,

Do you think that the pros will hate CB? I think they are going to hate the way that the greens look versus how they putt. They will putt fine, but they will look crappy....

[Jud_T]

Pat,
 
Do courses get the U.S. Open because they're in the top 100, or are courses in the top 100 because they've hosted the U.S. Open?

In some cases, neither. Hazeltine gets the U.S. Open (and, more recently, the PGA) because of its vast spaces for cars, tents, media, volunteers and spectators. Whoever said the Open is all about money must have been thinking of Hazeltine, because every major held there sets new records for revenue.

So you're saying Hazeltine's #94 on the current Digest list based solely on the strength of it's architecture?