US Open sites--west of the Mississippi

[Phil McDade]

Kevin:

WStraits sits less than a mile from an interstate -- I'm not sure how much closer you want a major-championship course to be in terms of access to a major thoroughfare. There is a ton of space at the Straits complex for corporate tents and the like. And judging stuff like based on the b.tching and moaning of the press is slightly ridiculous -- these guys cover golf for a living; any whining should be taken with huge grains of salt.

Eirn Hills also has plenty of room for tents and whatnot. I do think the logistics of getting there will be more problematic than WStraits.

[Kevin Stark]

I am aware of where it sits. Like I said, I've been there. It's fifty miles from Milwaukee, which is what the problem is. It ticks some of the boxes, being close to the interstate and having ample space, and it doesn't tick others, like getting people on and off that interstate exit and having hotels and corporate spaces close-by. Merion has different problems, like having nowhere close to enough space. The point I'm making is that *all* of the boxes have to be ticked for the USGA to want to take the U.S. Open there. It's why the USGA loves Bethpage so much: it ticks all of the checkboxes and that makes it a cash machine.

So...back to the question at hand. What sites in the west work? Olympic, Torrey, Pebble, and CB (we hope). Anything else? 

[Phil McDade]

The point I'm making is that *all* of the boxes have to be ticked for the USGA to want to take the U.S. Open there.  

This is a rather simple-minded view of how the USGA decides where to host the US Open. Mike Davis -- who I'm guessing has some input into this decision -- is on record as saying there is no one perfect Open site; all have various strengths and weaknesses.

[William_G]

Washington and Oregon are pretty iffy too in June. Many years summer in Seattle starts right around the time the fireworks are over on July 4th. The USGA is taking a big gamble on the weather with Chambers Bay. Weather-wise, it would make an outstanding place to hold the PGA as the weather is almost always flawless in August.

For the U.S. Open, you need a world-class golf course near a big city with a ton of room for spectators, corporate tents, and so forth. On the west coast, that's pretty much limited to Olympic, Pebble Beach, and Torrey Pines. Pebble Beach is a bit of an exception in terms of its remoteness but, well, it's Pebble Beach.

I'm not sure what they're thinking with Erin Hills. As a business decision, that's just bizarre. It's a long way from anything.

Kevin,

The weather on the WC is a lot less iffy and dramatic than the weather in the NE in June. So from a planning standpoint the worst case scenarios are far less likely to happen. So, the business decision there is easy.

It is very interesting how numerous courses around Philly have uncontrolled flooding from meandering creeks year in and year out. These floods routinely flood over greens and bunkers...it's very surprising for me to have that as a "normal" out there in the NE.

LA North could be a great US Open site

Old Macdonald would be a great US Open site and would be under 7000 yards. But there is no population there nor in Oregon to speak of.

[Kevin Stark]

I hope Chambers Bay is a huge success. It's such a beautiful part of the world. My fear is that the condition of the greens (induced by late spring climate or otherwise) and the difficulty in moving people around make it a train wreck. I hope Richard is right about the soil and turf types at CB mitigating that risk.

[William_G]

I hope Chambers Bay is a huge success. It's such a beautiful part of the world. My fear is that the condition of the greens (induced by late spring climate or otherwise) and the difficulty in moving people around make it a train wreck. I hope Richard is right about the soil and turf types at CB mitigating that risk.

Kevin,

The main thing at CB is that it is new and there is so many questions/unknowns...we'll see...no mud balls for sure, no rough height questions... the greens, well that may be a question but really not a catastrophy looming as in the NE

[Jay Flemma]

Funny, this was the assignment my editors gave me for today (but not just west of Mississippi).  I picked Riviera, Oakland Hills, Winged Foot East, Chicago Golf Club, Pacific Dunes...a few other surprises too:)

 BY the way..what about Wine Valley?  Tough enough?

[William_G]

Funny, this was the assignment my editors gave me for today (but not just west of Mississippi).  I picked Riviera, Oakland Hills, Winged Foot East, Chicago Golf Club, Pacific Dunes...a few other surprises too:)

 BY the way..what about Wine Valley?  Tough enough?

I like Wine Valley...could be great

[Stephen Davis]

You're really only talking about California and maybe Washington and Oregon.  The weather in Denver in the summer is just as iffy as back east, because of thunderstorms.  Texas and Oklahoma are not good options in June, either, for reasons that have been amply apparent on the front pages of the newspapers lately.

While, it is true that it can certainly be stormy in Denver/Colorado Springs in June (much less than it used to), it is also something that comes and goes quite quickly. A brief thunderstorm is probably preferable (in terms of hosting a golf tournament, not preferable when it comes to fires) to the constant rain they get on the East coast.

[Phil McDade]

Funny, this was the assignment my editors gave me for today (but not just west of Mississippi).  I picked Riviera, Oakland Hills, Winged Foot East, Chicago Golf Club, Pacific Dunes...a few other surprises too:)

 BY the way..what about Wine Valley?  Tough enough?

I like Wine Valley...could be great

People complaining about WStraits and Erin Hills and suggesting Wine Valley?

[Matthew Rose]

Colorado's been dry as a bone this summer.... too dry even. Hasn't rained here for more than a week and isn't supposed to again anytime soon.

But unfortunately you have that wonderful thing called altitude making all the courses a pitch n' putt.

[Ben Sims]

It is poa annua heaven out there.

Any word on how they will get people in and out of the golf course at CB? The streets leading into there seem too narrow to be running shuttle buses, especially with all of those roundabouts. Will they be able to bring people in via rail or ferry on the coastline?

The temporary train stop is still in the works, but a sticky wicket.  Hotel accommodations will be fine.  Better than Pinehurst or Pebble to be certain.  The traffic WILL be a nightmare.  A NIGHTMARE!  Chambers is weird in that its about as far from a major highway as one can get in the greater Tacoma area.  Highway 16 is 4-5 miles north, I-5 is five miles east.  The local schools are all pitching in their parking lots.  Most notably Curtis senior and junior high schools.  But getting to/from the golf course will be brutal.  

Agronomically, the tees and fairways could be tourney ready in a week of work..  The greens, not as much.  Like Rich said, Poa invasion is an issue.  One that seems combatted by a bit of a "scorched earth" policy, if you will.  They are establishing some huge turf nurseries that will undoubtedly help.  

When people talk about west coast destinations for the Open, I think several key components get missed.  1) it's easier for the majority of America to follow the event with late afternoon being prime time on the east coast.  2) weather is a complete non factor.  That is to say, there's as much of a chance of wetness in June in Penn, NY or NC as there is on the pacific coast.  The key difference is that huge storms rarely roll in an the wetness is far more manageable out on the west coast.  I think rain will be a non-factor at Chambers Bay due to the turf.

[Richard Choi]

There are a couple of great options for managing traffic at CB. First is extending the Sounders commuter train. If you coordinate withe the freight carriers, that could solve the need for 20% to 30% of the expected crowd. The second option is a ferry service between Seattle and CB. A commuter ferries around here carry several thousand each. So that could be an option.

The other item that will help is docking a cruise ship to serve as the floating hotel for players and guests. That would relieve a great deal of traffic in and out of the course.

With its sand base and drainage to the sound, the fitness of the course will not be a problem. With its length and firmness, USGA can practically name their desired winning score.

The only thing that concerns me is the uniformity of greens.

[David_Tepper]

"2) weather is a complete non factor.  That is to say, there's as much of a chance of wetness in June in Penn, NY or NC as there is on the pacific coast."

Ben Sims -

I can't speak to the "chance of wetness" in the Pacific Northwest during a typical June. However, with regards to the "chance of wetness" in California (be it Pebble, Olympic or Torrey Pines) during June vs. the "chance of wetness" in the northeast during a typical  June, there is simply no comparison.

While there may be some fog a times during June at the likely US Open venues in California, the chance of rain is pretty close to nil. That is very different from the chance of rain in the northeast during a typical June.  

DT

[David Bartman]

Washington and Oregon are pretty iffy too in June. Many years summer in Seattle starts right around the time the fireworks are over on July 4th. The USGA is taking a big gamble on the weather with Chambers Bay. Weather-wise, it would make an outstanding place to hold the PGA as the weather is almost always flawless in August.

For the U.S. Open, you need a world-class golf course near a big city with a ton of room for spectators, corporate tents, and so forth. On the west coast, that's pretty much limited to Olympic, Pebble Beach, and Torrey Pines. Pebble Beach is a bit of an exception in terms of its remoteness but, well, it's Pebble Beach.

I'm not sure what they're thinking with Erin Hills. As a business decision, that's just bizarre. It's a long way from anything.

Kevin,

The weather on the WC is a lot less iffy and dramatic than the weather in the NE in June. So from a planning standpoint the worst case scenarios are far less likely to happen. So, the business decision there is easy.

It is very interesting how numerous courses around Philly have uncontrolled flooding from meandering creeks year in and year out. These floods routinely flood over greens and bunkers...it's very surprising for me to have that as a "normal" out there in the NE.

LA North could be a great US Open site

Old Macdonald would be a great US Open site and would be under 7000 yards. But there is no population there nor in Oregon to speak of.

LACC has ZERO interest in having a US OPEN, I repeat ZERO ... Walker and Ryder Cups only.  Recognition without the headache is what their leading members are interested in. 

[Garland Bayley]

Washington and Oregon are pretty iffy too in June. Many years summer in Seattle starts right around the time the fireworks are over on July 4th. The USGA is taking a big gamble on the weather with Chambers Bay....

That's the biggest load of crap I've read on here in a while.

[David Bartman]

There are a couple of great options for managing traffic at CB. First is extending the Sounders commuter train. If you coordinate withe the freight carriers, that could solve the need for 20% to 30% of the expected crowd. The second option is a ferry service between Seattle and CB. A commuter ferries around here carry several thousand each. So that could be an option.

The other item that will help is docking a cruise ship to serve as the floating hotel for players and guests. That would relieve a great deal of traffic in and out of the course.

With its sand base and drainage to the sound, the fitness of the course will not be a problem. With its length and firmness, USGA can practically name their desired winning score.

The only thing that concerns me is the uniformity of greens.

I have heard that the players and USGA officials will be staying in cruise ships and ferry in due to the lack of enough "quality" hotel rooms immediately adjacent to the course.  

What is Tacoma 15 miles away from the course?  And only 1 4 star hotel, PGA players are not fond of that.  How many folks will leave their homes to rent them to players and their entourages for the week?  

I hope it has improved since the US AM, from a play-ability standpoint that wasn't very good,  to say the least.  

[Garland Bayley]

I'm not sure why the USGA passed on Pumpkin Ridge. The US Am they held there was almost certainly an evaluation of whether they could host a U.S. Open. I guess the answer was "no". It seems like a better option than Chambers Bay, having been to both.

Pumpkin Ridge was created just before the new ball obsoleted the course. They have been playing with the idea of a composite course that might be long enough.

I lived in Seattle for three years. You are correct that the possibilities of washouts like Merion and Bethpage are minimal. The amount of rain in June isn't the concern so much as the cool, damp weather limiting the ability of a golf course to emerge from winter. Course conditions in that part of the world can be quite crummy when the winter gloom lingers into May and June, wouldn't you agree?

It would seem you didn't play any golf while your were in the Pacific northwest. Course conditions in May and June are just fine if the course is well maintained. And, it doesn't take much money to do the maintenance. In June the weather is still cool enough to prevent the need to soak courses to keep the grass from dying. You must be halucinating about winter gloom in May and June.

[Kevin Stark]

I played plenty, thank you. The weather sucked and the conditions sucked. It's precisely why I pulled the ejection lever. The weather sucks many years well into June and if you live there you know that. Three months a year it's spectacular. The rest...you can have it.

[Daryl David]

Given the way it fared during sectional qualifying, how about Tumble Creek?   Firm and fast in June, 7000 yards and very resistant to scoring given the results at qualifying.  (only two players broke par)  90 minutes or so from 3.9 million potential golf fans.  Just off a major interstate freeway. Plenty of lodging at Suncadia and nice houses to rent for the wealthier professionals.  One downside for USGA is the club is private.

Perhaps this is tongue in cheek, but not any more far fetched than some other courses batted around in the conversation. 

[Jim Nelson]

Washington and Oregon are pretty iffy too in June. Many years summer in Seattle starts right around the time the fireworks are over on July 4th. The USGA is taking a big gamble on the weather with Chambers Bay. Weather-wise, it would make an outstanding place to hold the PGA as the weather is almost always flawless in August.

For the U.S. Open, you need a world-class golf course near a big city with a ton of room for spectators, corporate tents, and so forth. On the west coast, that's pretty much limited to Olympic, Pebble Beach, and Torrey Pines. Pebble Beach is a bit of an exception in terms of its remoteness but, well, it's Pebble Beach.

I'm not sure what they're thinking with Erin Hills. As a business decision, that's just bizarre. It's a long way from anything.

Kevin,

The weather on the WC is a lot less iffy and dramatic than the weather in the NE in June. So from a planning standpoint the worst case scenarios are far less likely to happen. So, the business decision there is easy.

It is very interesting how numerous courses around Philly have uncontrolled flooding from meandering creeks year in and year out. These floods routinely flood over greens and bunkers...it's very surprising for me to have that as a "normal" out there in the NE.

LA North could be a great US Open site

Old Macdonald would be a great US Open site and would be under 7000 yards. But there is no population there nor in Oregon to speak of.

LACC has ZERO interest in having a US OPEN, I repeat ZERO ... Walker and Ryder Cups only.  Recognition without the headache is what their leading members are interested in. 

So basically, what you are saying is that they want to take without giving back.  Doesn't surprise me, but I'm pretty sure hosting the Open is a headache and sacrifice for a golf course. Why does Olympic do it?  I believe they have a higher sense of responsibility to their community and the overall golf community. Pretty sure Winged Foot views it the same way. Olympic and Winged Foot don't do it for the money. Come on LA, step up.  Oh, I forgot. It's LA.

[Phil McDade]

Jim:

That may be a bit harsh (although I have to say, if LACC is interested in the Ryder Cup but not the headaches of a US Open, they've got another thing coming; having experienced the Ryder Cup at Medinah -- it's a total zoo and a complete loss of the club for a fairly long time, arguably as long as the Open. A complete blast of a zoo, but the Ryder Cup may be a bigger headache than any US Open these days.)

I know several clubs -- Milwaukee CC comes to mind -- that maintain very strong relations with the USGA, and occasionally like to host smaller championships (MCC hosted the US Mid-Am in 2008), but for a variety of reasons, their membership may not view their course or club as appropriate to host the US Open. The USGA desperately wanted this year's Open at The Country Club in Brookline, to honor Ouimet's historic victory there 100 years ago. But you can't force the thing down the throat of a club.

[Jim Nelson]

Jim:

That may be a bit harsh (although I have to say, if LACC is interested in the Ryder Cup but not the headaches of a US Open, they've got another thing coming; having experienced the Ryder Cup at Medinah -- it's a total zoo and a complete loss of the club for a fairly long time, arguably as long as the Open. A complete blast of a zoo, but the Ryder Cup may be a bigger headache than any US Open these days.)

I know several clubs -- Milwaukee CC comes to mind -- that maintain very strong relations with the USGA, and occasionally like to host smaller championships (MCC hosted the US Mid-Am in 2008), but for a variety of reasons, their membership may not view their course or club as appropriate to host the US Open. The USGA desperately wanted this year's Open at The Country Club in Brookline, to honor Ouimet's historic victory there 100 years ago. But you can't force the thing down the throat of a club.

Sure, it was a bit harsh... But somebody has to host the US Open. I have no idea of what it is like to work with the USGA, but I'm guessing it can't be easy. Neither would be working with the Ryder Cup folks. But, and I guess this is why I started this thread, the West Coast is BY FAR the best place to hold the tournament. LA as a city would be a great place with predicable weather, great courses etc. but it would also be good for the city as well, helping the local economy in a variety of ways.  LA CC would be a great venue and yes, their members would be inconvenienced for at least a couple of months, but really, just suck it up for a bit fellas. Olympic won't hold it every time their rotation comes up, but they will hold it, deal with it, be proud and move on.  And really, Brookline, what's up with that.  What an honor. Big miss on that. 

[mike_beene]

I am glad Merion was willing because they lose both courses and what a mess when next week rolls around. I am amazed at the buy in it must take from the community especially at Merion where the neighborhood streets are overtaken

[Phil McDade]

Jim:

The USGA is going to move the Open around the country -- it's unlikely to move it even semi-permanently to the West Coast (as in, three out of every five years) because they view it as a national tournament, and that fans around the country ought to at least have some kind of opportunity to see it in person in some way.

Having said that, they clearly seem to be moving away from hosting it primarily (exclusively at one point) at private courses, and looking at places like Chambers Bay and Erin Hills to host it on a regular basis.

The weather thing to me is over-rated; if Erin Hills had hosted the US Open last year in June, you would've seen the fastest and firmest US Open maybe ever -- probably on par with what Pebble experienced in '92 when Kite won. The weather was fine for Oakmont in '07, both Opens at Pinehurst, and all three of the Opens at Shinnecock.

My guess is that the USGA probably has four permanent venues for the Open -- Pebble, Shinnecock, Oakmont and Pinehurst -- with other sites subject to the usual negotiations and variables they consider for host sites.