I heard and interesting comment today, that the rain had effectively

[Patrick_Mucci]

widened the fairways at Merion.

I never gave that much thought, but, can see how fairways with little roll, especially canted fairways, would play wider.

But, the course would also play longer.

I also heard that the greens were expected to Stimp at 13-13.5, which seemed awfully quick given the slopes.

Ernie Els predicted the record number of birdies and perhaps the record score.

He knows infinitely more about the PGA Tour golfer's ability to score, but, he seemed to almost dismiss the wet rough as a scoring impediment.

The forecast is calling for a 90 % chance of rain on Thursday and a 30 % chance on Friday.

And, consideration is being given to taking holes # 11 and 12 out of play

Are they that good ?

Does anyone know if the rough will be cut between now and Sunday afternoon ?

 

[Jim Nugent]

And, consideration is being given to taking holes # 11 and 12 out of play
 

If that happens, which holes replace them, and what does that do to the course (yardage, par, difficulty, flow, etc)? 

[Anthony Butler]

And, consideration is being given to taking holes # 11 and 12 out of play
 

If that happens, which holes replace them, and what does that do to the course (yardage, par, difficulty, flow, etc)? 

Mike Davis and the Merion course superintendent (______Shaffer?) answered a question about this at a press conference on Monday... Even though they said it was a remote possibility this would happen-Davis said something like '1 in 10,000' they did concede that a hole or two on the West course could be put in play... Considering the shuttle from the practice facility on the West Course takes around 10 mins, this would be extremely disruptive... Not too mention add 20-25 mins to each round.

More likely, the rain will cause a couple of pin positions on lower parts of few greens to be taken out of consideration for the week.

[Mike Sweeney]

And, consideration is being given to taking holes # 11 and 12 out of play
 

If that happens, which holes replace them, and what does that do to the course (yardage, par, difficulty, flow, etc)? 

Matt Shaffer specifically said #12 would not be a problem.

The talk is #5 on The West which is at the opposite corner of The West entrance:

http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2013/06/merions-11th-hole-not-flooded-but-will-remain-closed-monday.html

#5 on The West might be the wildest roller coaster hole at Merion after East 18. I personally think it would ADD to the mystic of Merion if they had to add it in for one day of play. Basically it is one blind tee shot and a blindish approach shot.

[Paul Gray]

made the fairways play wider.....

Of course.

Pretty much page 1 stuff Pat.

It's the same argument put forward by any number of us when arguing against lush fairways. Tour Pros will equally tell you that length on a lush course presents no fears. Length plus a running ball however does.

[Mark McKeever]

Hole 5 and 9 on the west course would be my immediate picks.

Mark

[D_Malley]

how do you think a tour pro would play #5 west

5 iron tee shot, 7 iron approach.

[Rick Shefchik]

I also heard the very same guy say that the soft greens were going to create a lot of problems with wedges in their hands because they'd be terribly concerned about spinning the heck out of them, so spin control with wedges would likely decide the event because you can't go long and you can't spin it short off the green, either.   This player actually seemed to think that the shorter holes play easier with firm greens (ie, it's easier to predict roll-out than backspin).  I thought that was a very interesting comment.

If we see innumerable approach shots zipping backwards, it will be the first time in memory at a U.S. Open. It will look like the Bob Hope Desert Classic.

[Patrick_Mucci]

made the fairways play wider.....

Of course.

Pretty much page 1 stuff Pat.

Paul,

Not when you combine the 9 inch rough with lots of rain.
Anyone not hitting a fairway will have to pitch out and not attempt an approach to the green.
Wet rough, and they're expecting more rain on Thursday and Friday, will be formidable.
So, while I understood the comment in the pure sense of the fairway, it almost disregarded the impact of wet conditions on the rough, ergo, the play of the holes.

It's the same argument put forward by any number of us when arguing against lush fairways.
Tour Pros will equally tell you that length on a lush course presents no fears. Length plus a running ball however does.

Yes, but holes are comprised of more than just fairway.
And, the rough at Merion looks brutal.
Get that rough wet and you'd better have superman like wrists and forearms.

It'll be interesting to see if the rain promotes the driver or keeps them on the defensive with fairway woods and irons.

[Brent Hutto]

Are we "concerned" about average scores or winning scores. If someone wins at -14 he will likely be a player that was not in the rough more than a handful of times. The average score will be determined by all those guys hacking out of 9 inches of wet hay, the winning score will be determined by one of the few guys hitting 80% of the fairways...which is of course a much easier task on a waterlogged course where the ball does not bounce or run into trouble. Full circle argument completed.

[Phil McDade]

I also heard the very same guy say that the soft greens were going to create a lot of problems with wedges in their hands because they'd be terribly concerned about spinning the heck out of them, so spin control with wedges would likely decide the event because you can't go long and you can't spin it short off the green, either.   This player actually seemed to think that the shorter holes play easier with firm greens (ie, it's easier to predict roll-out than backspin).  I thought that was a very interesting comment.

Dave (and Brent):

See this thread from the last US Open inundated with rain (BBlack, '09) and particularly the observant comment in reply #27 :

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40234.0.html

Time will tell, but it may very well be that the only thing holding back low scores this year at Merion would be someone not hitting fairways. As Patrick notes (something hashed out in various threads here during the '09 US Open at BBlack), the dampness of the course effectively widens the fairways. It also -- if one avoids the lengthy rough at Merion (does anyone know if Davis abandoned his graduated rough idea for this year's model?) -- effectively makes it easier to hold greens from farther away. Thus we may have something of a repeat of '09, where many players intentionally play less than driver off the tee (to avoid the rough), with no real penalty for doing so, because Merion's not that long (on several holes), and where it is, the greens will be more receptive to longer clubs played from the fairway.

Why risk spinning a wedge off a green when you can float a 7-iron into a receptive green from farther back in the fairway?

[David Ober]

I also heard the very same guy say that the soft greens were going to create a lot of problems with wedges in their hands because they'd be terribly concerned about spinning the heck out of them, so spin control with wedges would likely decide the event because you can't go long and you can't spin it short off the green, either.   This player actually seemed to think that the shorter holes play easier with firm greens (ie, it's easier to predict roll-out than backspin).  I thought that was a very interesting comment.

If we see innumerable approach shots zipping backwards, it will be the first time in memory at a U.S. Open. It will look like the Bob Hope Desert Classic.

Most of the courses in the Hope rotation are (or at least USED TO BE) Bermuda over-seeded with Rye. They don't zip the balls back much on those things unless they're into the wind.

In my playing experience, the greens that are easiest to spin the ball back on are soft poa greens. At certain times of year in SoCal, you can spin the ball far too much with full wedges on moist, fast poa greens

[David_Elvins]

Pat,

Don't forget also that wet fairways take away the advantage of shaping a tee shot.  It will bring some of the straight hitters who don't shape the ball more in to play.

[mike_beene]

I spent some time at 5 today and I don't see how they can keek a ball on the fairway if dry.You almost have to cut the drive.

[John Ezekowitz]

I spent some time at 5 today and I don't see how they can keek a ball on the fairway if dry.You almost have to cut the drive.

Not sure about that. I've played there several times in firm and fast conditions and never had that problem on 5. This is especially true if you challenge the creek on your tee shot, as the ground down there is much flatter.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Don't forget also that wet fairways take away the advantage of shaping a tee shot.  It will bring some of the straight hitters who don't shape the ball more in to play.

David,

It's hard for me to believe that a PGA Tour Pro can't shape his tee shot to fit a given hole.

While they may have a "flight" preference, I would imagine that the level of talent is so spectacular that they can do almost anything they set their minds to.

I just hope tomorrow's storm misses Ardmore.

[Ronald Montesano]

LCP? It looks like Philly is going to get destroyed with rain over the next 36 hours, especially evening Thursday and overnight into Friday morning. Even if sun comes out on Friday, the sponge that is Merion will suffer.

It looks like all northeast venues for US Opens that are not sand-based are a risk from this point forward.

[David_Elvins]

David,

It's hard for me to believe that a PGA Tour Pro can't shape his tee shot to fit a given hole.

While they may have a "flight" preference, I would imagine that the level of talent is so spectacular that they can do almost anything they set their minds to.

Compared to me, then yes, they can shape a shot to fit a hole, but compared to each other, there will be always be some that are better at it than others, just like any skill.  My experience watching pro golf is not extensive but I don't think it is hard to see that some players 'flush' it better than others. some players are reall good at shaping the ball and some prefer a very repeatable action and shot shape. 

[Paul Gray]

All true Pat, but your point initially was that the rain would make the fairways play wider. That was what I was pointing out to be obvious. I'm not disputing that wet rough is harder to play from than dry stuff.

As for club in hand on the tee, I'm going with most of them playing safe, a la Tiger at Royal Lytham. Without wishing to state the bleedingly obvious but clearly doing so anyway, if he applies the same stragegy, coupled with the game he's refound, he'll be well in the mix. It'll be interesting to see if Luke Donald, although driver may well be needed more, can take advantage of conditions which may well play into his hands. His putting could be a factor.  

 

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Rather than start a new topic, can anyone explain why Poulter got a free drop in the rough on the left of 14? Plugged ball in rough? Penalty drop, no?

[Rick Shefchik]

Rather than start a new topic, can anyone explain why Poulter got a free drop in the rough on the left of 14? Plugged ball in rough? Penalty drop, no?

They're playing the embedded ball rule through the green because of the soft conditions.

[jeffwarne]

I also heard the very same guy say that the soft greens were going to create a lot of problems with wedges in their hands because they'd be terribly concerned about spinning the heck out of them, so spin control with wedges would likely decide the event because you can't go long and you can't spin it short off the green, either.   This player actually seemed to think that the shorter holes play easier with firm greens (ie, it's easier to predict roll-out than backspin).  I thought that was a very interesting comment.

If we see innumerable approach shots zipping backwards, it will be the first time in memory at a U.S. Open. It will look like the Bob Hope Desert Classic.

Well, that's exactly what we're seeing.  Even on the longest holes (say, 18), a HUGE drive (courtesy of a 460cc driver, a hot, straight ball and a kryptonite shaft) leaves a mid-iron cavity back shot with jacked up loft that STILL flies as high as a short iron that they can make a home run swing at and get a shitload of spin on, and still hold a mid-iron shot that simply COULD NOT HAVE BEEN HELD UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES even 30 years ago.  

Lord, I would love to see these guys playing with MacGregor tourney Eye-O-Matics, Wilson Staff blades (1 irons incl.), 2 wedges, a blade putter and balata balls right now!  

And Mucci has the nerve to proselytize about the USGA's exemplary stewardship in regulating I&B?  Puke!!  

Shivas,
I'm all for a rollback, but to suggest that one couldn't hold a sopping wet 18th green is silly.
Isn't a mid iron with jacked loft simply a long iron?
You don't think Jack Nicklaus could've held the green on 18 with a 4 iron today?

These guys are good, and there's more of them than there used to be.
hitting a persimmon driver and a blade wasn't/isn't that hard, particularly for guys who hit it in the center of the face.

Of course the balls, shafts and drivers are hotter, but if they weren't 18 would be 50 yards shorter

[David_Elvins]

Rather than start a new topic, can anyone explain why Poulter got a free drop in the rough on the left of 14? Plugged ball in rough? Penalty drop, no?

Its a standard local rule on tour.