Do you know what I think makes a great, short par 4 ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The prospect of failure and/or disaster.

I was thinking about some of the great par 4's that I really enjoy playing.

I had recently played a few with Bill and Mike.

On that day, each neat par 4 came with high numbers written all over it.

# 1 at NGLA is a perfect example.
Barely 300 yards, downhill, disaster can strike in so many ways.
On the tee shot, recovery, approach, recovery and putting.

Ditto the second hole.

The 1st at GCGC, same thing, although the topography isn't as threatening.

On the short uphill, dogleg par 4 that Bill, Mike and I played the other day, it was the same thing.
You could take a big number with an errant drive, recovery, approach, recovery and putting.

From the tee, the holes cry out, "par" or "birdie", but bogies, doubles and triples are just a slip of concentration, bad judgement or a bad swing away.

The 12th at Mountain Ridge, while a little longer, presents the same "truth or consequences"
An errant drive, recovery, approach, recovery and putting can add a phone number to your score.
Ditto # 3.

Architecturally, I'm more prone to accept harsh consequences on a shorter hole, deeming a long hole with harsh consequences as "not being fun"

Other than # 10 at Riviera, are there any truly great, short par 4's without dire consequences ?

[Mark Saltzman]

Pat,

If we are saying that 10 at Riv doesn't have dire consequences, then we can include 6 at LACC in the discussion.

While we're on the California theme, 3 at Rustic Canyon doesn't have dire consequences.

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

A very good short par 4 at Milwaukee CC; note the scoring spread during the US Mid-Am held there:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37107.0.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

If we are saying that 10 at Riv doesn't have dire consequences, then we can include 6 at LACC in the discussion.

Mark,

I think # 6 has disaster written all over it.

While we're on the California theme, 3 at Rustic Canyon doesn't have dire consequences.

Wouldn't know, never played it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

A very good short par 4 at Milwaukee CC; note the scoring spread during the US Mid-Am held there:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37107.0.html

Phil,

Just curious, why wouldn't a tee shot landing on the upsloped fairway past the ravine be an ideal spot to drive it to ?

[J_ Crisham]

Pat, To answer your question regarding 9 at MCC, the hole is best played either of two ways. Lay back at 90 yds and approach with a sand wedge or go for the green and either be on or in the left front bunker. The false front is similar to 9 at ANGC  . When we played a couple of weeks ago , I spun a SW 40 yds down the fairway off the green. The head pro at MCC who  I played with drove the bunker greenside left and had a fairly simple up and down for birdie. This as Phil stated one of the best short par 4's in golf.

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

A very good short par 4 at Milwaukee CC; note the scoring spread during the US Mid-Am held there:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37107.0.html

Phil,

Just curious, why wouldn't a tee shot landing on the upsloped fairway past the ravine be an ideal spot to drive it to ?

Pat:

As noted in the thread (by one of the caddies at the Mid-Am), the ideal position into that green is whatever length the player can hit a wedge without spinning it back toward the false front and subsequently off the green and back down the fairway. The green itself cants pretty sharply from back to front, even before you get to the false front.

Also, this is a hole where the wind can play a big role. It runs due north, and with a helping wind from the south (not atypical during the summer), it can be driven. With a hard wind out of the north, however, prudence off the tee should be the play. It can play from @ 280 to 330 yds or so.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, why would you say #10 at Riviera doesn't offer dire consequences for being out of position?   The pros who make doubles during the LA Open might disagree.  It's virtually impossible to hold the green if the tee ball is pushed out to the right.  When you miss the green, the next shot is to a slippery table top about the size of a card table.  In position it's a fairly routine pitch.  Out of position, Houdini would be happy with a bogey. 

[Mark McKeever]

I will make an attempt to post about a few short holes on public courses in the greater Philadelphia area that everyone on the site can actually relate to.   


The first that comes to mind is 3 at Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia.  A long iron or fairway wood off the tee must be down the left side to leave the most ideal angle to a small target green fronted by the creek.  Even missing in the left rough is a good shot off the tee as long as you can find a decent lie.  Anything short obviously is a drop leaving a very dicey pitch over the creek to the shallow green.  But playing safe and missing left can funnel down into a swale long of the green with a really delicate shot back to the putting surface with the creek lurking close behind.  It's a birdie hole when you look on the card, but it's very easy to make a 6 here without thinking.

The second that comes to mind is the 11th hole at the Links at Brigantine Beach in NJ.  Having only seen the place once, I can see why Mike Cirba absolutely loves the place.  This public access venue is blessed with a bayside location and the wind strongly dictates play on all of the holes.  The ideal line is to challenge/carry the bunker on the right side to leave an ideal angled pitch into a small severely sloping green.  If one elects to play safely left off the tee a short iron is the result, however its directly over a salt marsh hitting across the slope of the green.  If one has a downwind shot, its even feasible to knock a driver onto the green by hitting a gutsy tee shot!  Its such a great short hole as there can be anywhere from a 2 to an 6 made very easily.

Finally the second at Donald Ross's Jeffersonville Golf Course in Norristown, PA.  One can hit anything from a long iron off the tee to a driver down in front of the volcano'ish green.  Be very careful to avoid the fairway bunkers down the right hand side which will really complicate the approach.  Regardless of the club in hand for the second, its a very nervous second shot to the small green that gives a very all or nothing result.  Anything short can end up in the small creek that fronts the green and anything long that ends up mis-hit can end up there as well.  There have been plenty of times where I have seen a person go from one side of the green to the other.  It's a hole that one can expect to make a birdie but can really be a setback early in the round.

Mark

[Donnie Beck]

You see more double bogeys than birdies on the 3rd hole at fishers.

[Matthew Essig]

How short are we discussing? Drivable? A good drive leaves a pitch?

[Phil McDade]

How short are we discussing? Drivable? A good drive leaves a pitch?

Matthew:

I think really good short par 4s offer the opportunity of either one, and should both: a) make driving the green tempting but penal if missed; AND b) create a pitch shot of some uncertainty and challenge with the safe shot off the tee.

Oakmont's 17th comes to mind as well.

[Brian Colbert]

Patrick,

What is it, then, about 14 at Bandon trails which makes many on this site and elsewhere hate it so much? For the record, it might be my favorite hole on the entire property.

[Matthew Essig]

How short are we discussing? Drivable? A good drive leaves a pitch?

Matthew:

I think really good short par 4s offer the opportunity of either one, and should both: a) make driving the green tempting but penal if missed; AND b) create a pitch shot of some uncertainty and challenge with the safe shot off the tee.

Thank you.

I know of quite a few people who don't like the 12th at Chambers Bay because the "green is too gimmicky" or "the layup is too penal" but I think it is a great hole.

Drive is tight with OB far left, thick fescue and a deep bunker on a hill just left, thin fairway sits in the middle in a valley, thick fescue on a hill just right, and a walking path further right. The green is in reach with a well hit drive and eagle is a possibility.

At the 2010 US Am, I saw players hit their balls in all 5 places listed above. Many players bailed out away from the OB and ended up on the dune right before the ball hopped and rolled down to the walking path. The drop off the walking path leaves a blind downhill lie over a dune. I saw so many bogeys and worse.

If you lay up in the tight fairway, a lot of the green is hidden behind the dune left with the bunker. The blind second is to a very contoured green. As it is a punchbowl, if the banks aren't played right, you can leave yourself a 50 footer.

It is easily thought of as a birdie hole, even an eagle hole, but bogey or worse can easily be accomplished. It might be the most interesting hole come the US Open.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

What is it, then, about 14 at Bandon trails which makes many on this site and elsewhere hate it so much? For the record, it might be my favorite hole on the entire property.


Brian,

I've never played it so I can't comment

Perhaps others more familiar with the hole will offer their opinions

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, why would you say #10 at Riviera doesn't offer dire consequences for being out of position?   

I don't see the "dire" consequences off the tee or on the putting surface.

The pros who make doubles during the LA Open might disagree. 

Maybe yes, maybe no

It's virtually impossible to hold the green if the tee ball is pushed out to the right. 

Doesn't that depend upon your distance from the green ?
And, if you can't hold it, why would recovery be difficult ?

When you miss the green, the next shot is to a slippery table top about the size of a card table. 

Not so sure that I agree with your description and degree of difficulty recovering from missing the green.
Most misses are probably in a bunker, leaving a reasonable recovery shot.

I suspect that the 13th green at Pine Tree presents a more difficult target

In position it's a fairly routine pitch.  Out of position, Houdini would be happy with a bogey. 

I'd disagree with that as well.

I don't see disaster looming as pervasively as you do.

Or, maybe you're bunker game is fragile

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, why would you say #10 at Riviera doesn't offer dire consequences for being out of position?   

I don't see the "dire" consequences off the tee or on the putting surface.

The pros who make doubles during the LA Open might disagree. 

Maybe yes, maybe no

It's virtually impossible to hold the green if the tee ball is pushed out to the right. 

Doesn't that depend upon your distance from the green ?
And, if you can't hold it, why would recovery be difficult ?

When you miss the green, the next shot is to a slippery table top about the size of a card table. 

Not so sure that I agree with your description and degree of difficulty recovering from missing the green.
Most misses are probably in a bunker, leaving a reasonable recovery shot.

I suspect that the 13th green at Pine Tree presents a more difficult target

In position it's a fairly routine pitch.  Out of position, Houdini would be happy with a bogey. 

I'd disagree with that as well.

I don't see disaster looming as pervasively as you do.

Or, maybe you're bunker game is fragile

The problem with pitches from the right, and recovery shots, is the steep tilt of the small green from right to left.

Have you played the hole?

[Michael Huber]

Finally the second at Donald Ross's Jeffersonville Golf Course in Norristown, PA.  One can hit anything from a long iron off the tee to a driver down in front of the volcano'ish green.  Be very careful to avoid the fairway bunkers down the right hand side which will really complicate the approach.  Regardless of the club in hand for the second, its a very nervous second shot to the small green that gives a very all or nothing result.  Anything short can end up in the small creek that fronts the green and anything long that ends up mis-hit can end up there as well.  There have been plenty of times where I have seen a person go from one side of the green to the other.  It's a hole that one can expect to make a birdie but can really be a setback early in the round.

Mark

Mark, if I recall correctly, #2 at Jeffersonville's second shot is also on somewhat of a downhill lie.  That makes the pitch shot a bit tougher to execute. 

A bad short hole, off the top of my head, would be #5 at Buena Vista in gilbertsville.

[Ronald Montesano]

brevity?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Three good ones this week, all different but all have double bogey potential.
Too greedy off the tee..trouble
Too bold to tight pin placements...trouble
Lack of attention on the putting surface...trouble

Play smart, get your par and smile

[Patrick_Mucci]

The problem with pitches from the right, and recovery shots, is the steep tilt of the small green from right to left.

I agree, I just don't see the same degree of disaster that you depict.

Have you played the hole?

A couple of dozen times over the last 40 years

[Jim Nugent]

I haven't played it, but watching #7 at Olympic Lake from the gallery in 1993/1994 made me really appreciate the short par 4.  The hole has no water.  No OB.  No cliffs, canyons or barrancas. 

Yet at 288 yards (in 1994), par was never a sure thing for the pros.  Next to no one drove the green back then, though several tried.  The 3-tiered putting surface looked like a real adventure, especially if you were one or more tiers above the hole. 

With #7 and #18, I felt Olympic had two outstanding short par 4s. 

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