[Mark Bourgeois]

So we all agree Merion US Opens are about mid and long irons. Hy Peskin's photo of Hogan on the 72nd hole in 1950 burned into our golfer subconsciouses the association of Merion with 1-irons (for some, 2-irons).

Most US Opens place special emphasis on those clubs: narrow the fairways and grow the rough -> use driver as little as possible -> trade distance for position off the tee -> longer distances into par 4 greens -> hit mid / long iron / hybrid.

Due to Merion's lack of length for golfers floggers, the USGA apparently has buttressed the course's defenses off the tee even by the standards of a "typical" US Open: growing really long rough, narrowing the fairways to what some say are ridiculous widths and moving in fairway bunkers in at least one instance (16th I think).

So questions about driver off the tee seem misplaced.

Players won't use drivers much, but in the 1971 and 1981 opens they probably didn't use the club much, either. Certainly less frequently than a "standard" US Open. Nicklaus was long, yes, so he is not representative but here is his club selection off the tee on par 4s in the first round of the 1971 Open:
Driver 3x
3-wood 6x
1-iron 2x
2-iron 1x

So the real question in my mind is, what clubs will this year's golfers be hitting into the par 4 greens? And to understand that question it would help to know what clubs champions of previous opens hit into par 4 greens. Their yardages to the greens would be helpful as well.

Does anyone have that information, specifically for the 1950, 1971 or 1981 opens?

Even limited information would be helpful. We know Hogan hit a ~240-yard driver and a ~215 1-iron on the 458-yard par 4 18th; what about Trevino and Graham?

[DMoriarty]

Mark,

Not exactly what you asked, but in 1930 Golf Illustrated had a series of diagrams noting the clubs that Jones used in the 1930 Amateur, at least for his approaches.  This before the numbering of clubs had been standardized, so the numbers don't exactly lend themselves well for comparison with todays clubs.

Here from a post I did a about a year ago:

Here are Ralph Livingston's 2004 Conversions for the clubs Jones carried.  
  2I  =   Driving Mashie
  3I  =   No. 1 Iron ("Iron")
  4I  =   No. 2 Iron
  5I  =   Mashie Iron ("No. 3 Iron")
  6I  =   No. 4 Iron
  7I  =   Mashie
  8I  =   Spade Mashie
  9I  =   Mashie Niblick
  PW =  Niblick

He also carried two driving clubs, a Driver and and 11* Brassie, as well as a Spoon (3 or 4 Wood) and a funky sand club and a putter.    

Here are Jones' converted  clubs for his two 1930 two stroke play rounds, according to Golf Illustratred.  Where GI doesn't specify the tee club I am assuming one of the two driving woods, and given the distances of the drives I think that is a pretty safe assumption.   Where two approach clubs are marked is where GI indicated Jones hit different approach clubs for the two rounds.  I have marked pitch or chip or sand where Jones was close to the green for his approach shot.

1.  Driving Club - 9 iron
2.  Driving Club - 4 wood - sand/chip
3.  4 iron
4.  Driving Club- 6 iron/ 9 iron
5.  Driving Club - 5 iron
6.  Driving Club - 4 iron
7.  Driving Club - 9 iron
8.  Driving Club - chip (nine iron)
9.  5 iron
10. Driving Club- chip (5 iron)
11. Driving Club - 8 iron/ 9 iron
12. Driving Club- 9 iron
13. 9 iron
14. Driving Club - 6 iron/8 iron
15. Driving Club- 9 iron
16. Driving Club - 8 iron/5 iron
17. 4 iron
18. Driving Club - 7 iron/8 iron
  
So for example on the first hole Jones hit the equivalent of driving club then 9 nine iron.  How long would the first have to be for the modern players to have to hit driving club nine iron?

[Mark Bourgeois]

David,

I think you got the point / question I'm interested in. It would be great to see Hogan, Trevino and Graham's club selections, too, to get a sense of how comparable the test is.

Reading newspaper accounts of previous opens I was struck by how similar the concerns were before those opens as before this one. Which makes me think we are missing a beat if we just look at scoring.

I'm not grinding an ax; it's possible with the lengthening that players could face similar challenges for their second shots on par 4s as in the past, especially if they eschew driver. It doesn't have to be the same club just a "similar" challenge. Then we could say some sort of historical balance has been preserved. Not perfect but reasonable.

Working the other way, and not really in scope for this analysis, flattening the greens could be a problem in the historical context given that Watson called the putting challenge 20 feet of break on a 30 foot putt. (I think I've got that right.)

This approach to comparison seems more appropriate to me than simply comparing this year's scoring to past years'.

What do you think?

[Dan Herrmann]

I think it's fascinating how Jones used a wide variety of clubs with which to chip.  Today's golfers seem to pull out the sand wedge for most shots around the green.

[William_G]

loved the NBC show today

from that show, in the final round

# 18    Nicklaus: Driver,  4 iron...Trevino:: Driver,  3 wood

[Patrick_Mucci]

So we all agree Merion US Opens are about mid and long irons.

Disagree.

I think it's about hitting the fairway as close to the green as possible. 


Hy Peskin's photo of Hogan on the 72nd hole in 1950 burned into our golfer subconsciouses the association of Merion with 1-irons (for some, 2-irons).

Most US Opens place special emphasis on those clubs: narrow the fairways and grow the rough -> use driver as little as possible -> trade distance for position off the tee -> longer distances into par 4 greens -> hit mid / long iron / hybrid.

Due to Merion's lack of length for golfers floggers, the USGA apparently has buttressed the course's defenses off the tee even by the standards of a "typical" US Open: growing really long rough, narrowing the fairways to what some say are ridiculous widths and moving in fairway bunkers in at least one instance (16th I think).

So questions about driver off the tee seem misplaced.

Players won't use drivers much, but in the 1971 and 1981 opens they probably didn't use the club much, either. Certainly less frequently than a "standard" US Open. Nicklaus was long, yes, so he is not representative but here is his club selection off the tee on par 4s in the first round of the 1971 Open:
Driver 3x
3-wood 6x
1-iron 2x
2-iron 1x

So the real question in my mind is, what clubs will this year's golfers be hitting into the par 4 greens? And to understand that question it would help to know what clubs champions of previous opens hit into par 4 greens. Their yardages to the greens would be helpful as well.

Does anyone have that information, specifically for the 1950, 1971 or 1981 opens?

Even limited information would be helpful. We know Hogan hit a ~240-yard driver and a ~215 1-iron on the 458-yard par 4 18th; what about Trevino and Graham?

[DMoriarty]

David,

I think you got the point / question I'm interested in. It would be great to see Hogan, Trevino and Graham's club selections, too, to get a sense of how comparable the test is.

Reading newspaper accounts of previous opens I was struck by how similar the concerns were before those opens as before this one. Which makes me think we are missing a beat if we just look at scoring.

I'm not grinding an ax; it's possible with the lengthening that players could face similar challenges for their second shots on par 4s as in the past, especially if they eschew driver. It doesn't have to be the same club just a "similar" challenge. Then we could say some sort of historical balance has been preserved. Not perfect but reasonable.

Working the other way, and not really in scope for this analysis, flattening the greens could be a problem in the historical context given that Watson called the putting challenge 20 feet of break on a 30 foot putt. (I think I've got that right.)

This approach to comparison seems more appropriate to me than simply comparing this year's scoring to past years'.

What do you think?

I think that one must really consider how different the course is then than now.  Looking at the clubs they are hitting is a good start, but one must also consider how the fairways (and greens have changed.)   Here is something I posted a while back showing the 7th hole in 1930 compared to the 7th today.   In 1930 Jones hit a wood off the tee and played right along the out of bounds because there was a huge premium on hitting along the property line and up into the natural bottleneck close to the green.  Otherwise the ball would run well left and leave a terrible angle over the bunker.  It was a strategic golf hole with a definite risk/reward.   Does the current hole present the same challenge?  Surely no one will be hitting woods off the tee, will they?

[Mark Bourgeois]

loved the NBC show today

from that show, in the final round

# 18    Nicklaus: Driver,  4 iron...Trevino:: Driver,  3 wood

Also, I think it mentioned Trevino hitting 5-iron into 16 green.

David, yep, it's a fair point and logging second shots on the par 4s does not tell that story. To your point, if floggers are hitting the same or equivalent-loft clubs on a particular hole as golfers in previous Opens, then that could (probably will) be because they did not hit driver, whereas golfers did in previous Opens.

But still: presumably the / a reason for new back tees and skinnied down fairways is essentially to trade strategy and driver off the tee for execution of mid/long iron shots off the fairways. Take driver out of their hands as much as possible. I'd like to know how well that tradeoff has been accomplished, how much at least one key challenge has been preserved.

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