Name me a course as good as Deal that has as many bunkerless greens

[Scott Warren]

It has been two-and-a-half years since I last visited my home away from home (a pleasant foursomes match with Mike Whitaker, Bill McBride and Joe Buehler) and only eight weeks until I am back there, so I have been thinking about it a lot.

One of the most incredible things is that the land - flattish, but constantly rippling and rising and falling regularly by two-to-five feet - is perfect for greens that are so intriguing through land alone that they don't need to be bunkered.

Half the greens unbunkered, and those holes probably include 6-7 of the best 10 on the course.

Riddle me this: is there a golf course on the face of planet Earth better than Royal Cinque Ports - even comparable to the quality of "the hilliest flat links in golf" - that has as many, or more, bunkerless greens.

For those who might want to suggest a rival: the number to match or beat is nine bunkerless greens (1, 3, 4, 6, 10, 15, 16, 17, 18).

[Bill_McBride]

+1

That was a fun day but I think we were drowned in rain on 16.

You're dead right about all the superb bunkerless greens.   The lack of bunkers doesn't make the scoring any easier.  Great touch is required. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Scott - I'm glad you're getting a chance to go back. I would very much like to go one day. Deal seems to offer golf in its simplest (and thus its purist) form - visually/aesthetically, playability-wise, and strategically. There is something ultimately appealing about that. Architects, the good ones and the great ones, take a lot of time and trouble and talent to 'design' a course and then 'hide' their work -- and that's wonderful, and I don't mean to disparage it; but from a golfer's perspective, I can't imagine feeling more peaceful and free (while still playing the game) than over the wide, flowing (and largely bunkerless) expanse that Deal offers/provides so effortlessly and without seeming artifice.

Peter

[Michael Whitaker]

Scotty - you are so correct about these outstanding holes. It is the very holes you mention that won me over to Deal the first time I played there. As we have discussed before, the course that plays most similar to Deal is The Old Course in St Andrews... and, I think a 10 round split would be 5 and 5 for me... Deal is that good. My only issue with Deal is that 9 and 11 are too similar.

I'm sorry I am going to miss you this time around. I'll be returning to the States on July 21.

[Mike_Clayton]

Royal Ashdown Forest - all 18 of them!

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike next time you are over we'll jump onto the sea wall tee on 9, at 440yds and a blind second shot unless you can hit it 270, you'll see 9 and 11 can be very different holes.

Mike Clayton - RAF maybe bunkerless but the Deal green complexes are pretty special.

[mike_malone]

 I found RAF to be a lesser course than Deal

[Bill_McBride]

Scotty - you are so correct about these outstanding holes. It is the very holes you mention that won me over to Deal the first time I played there. As we have discussed before, the course that plays most similar to Deal is The Old Course in St Andrews... and, I think a 10 round split would be 5 and 5 for me... Deal is that good. My only issue with Deal is that 9 and 11 are too similar.

I'm sorry I am going to miss you this time around. I'll be returning to the States on July 21.

Sorry, don't get the 9-11 similarity. 9 is an uphill dogleg left around a fairway bunker, with a great halfway house to the left.  11 is straight with a Roman road across the front. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike next time you are over we'll jump onto the sea wall tee on 9, at 440yds and a blind second shot unless you can hit it 270, you'll see 9 and 11 can be very different holes.

I've played 9 from the sea wall and, yes, it does change the hole considerably because of the added distance. But, you don't usually play from there... at least I don't. And, for guys who hit the ball 270+ it probably doesn't play too differently because they are hitting driver from up there instead of 3-wood from the lower tee.

[Michael Whitaker]

Scotty - you are so correct about these outstanding holes. It is the very holes you mention that won me over to Deal the first time I played there. As we have discussed before, the course that plays most similar to Deal is The Old Course in St Andrews... and, I think a 10 round split would be 5 and 5 for me... Deal is that good. My only issue with Deal is that 9 and 11 are too similar.

I'm sorry I am going to miss you this time around. I'll be returning to the States on July 21.

Sorry, don't get the 9-11 similarity. 9 is an uphill dogleg left around a fairway bunker, with a great halfway house to the left.  11 is straight with a Roman road across the front.  

Both holes are soft right to left dog legs of similar lengths with slightly canted left to right fairways that play in basically the same direction vs the wind, away from the Channel. Both have greens with flanking bunkers. Yes, 11 has the Roman road, but it doesn't come into play except for the weakest players. Yes, 9 has the halfway "hut" off to the left of the green, but I would hardly call it great. Quaint would be kind. Both holes have a large fairway bunker on the inside of the dog leg and "look" very similar from the tee. When I first started playing there I often got the holes mixed up in my mind when thinking about the course after my round.

[David_Elvins]

Scott,

As Mike Whitaker alludes to, The Old Course would come close in a nunerical sense,  depending on how you define a 'greenside bunker'.

Anotehr strong comparison between the two courses.

[Noel Freeman]

Mike next time you are over we'll jump onto the sea wall tee on 9, at 440yds and a blind second shot unless you can hit it 270, you'll see 9 and 11 can be very different holes.

I've played 9 from the sea wall and, yes, it does change the hole considerably because of the added distance. But, you don't usually play from there... at least I don't. And, for guys who hit the ball 270+ it probably doesn't play too differently because they are hitting driver from up there instead of 3-wood from the lower tee.

Mike, I don't agree, first of all the wind is different on both b/c of the angle of the doglegs.

Second point #9 bunker eats more into the line of play and dares you to play close to it to shorten the hole and get a better approach.  My best plays on this hole were draws that skirted the bunker and gave me an optimal angle.. Of course this bunker can lead you astray left into some of the worst rough on the course.  The drive on 11 for whatever reason, the wind or the straighter angle pushes you off to the right to an area that one will find the ball, but hacking out of the rough brings the bunker short right into play.

I will admit 9 and 11 are my two least favorite holes at Deal but I enjoy their subtleties plus 9 has some great rolls to it.. I always imagine the Roman Centurions marching on the ancient highway as an obstacle to surmount on my approach to #11.. It heightens the experience for those with a vivid imagination and lends a historical perspective.

[Michael Whitaker]

Noel - I'm a lefty, so perhaps my different visual perspective is why the holes seem more similar too me. When standing on the tee both holes have a common look to my eye. I'm not disparaging the holes... or saying that they don't have minor differences... I'm just saying they are too similar for my taste, especially from the tee. Let's understand, however, I'm splitting hairs here as both holes are OK in their own right. I'd just rather one or the other present a significantly different challenge than the other.

[Scott Warren]

I am with Whitty - 9 and 11 have enough in common, on a course otherwise loaded with variety, that they call one other to mind as you stand on the tee and in the fairway.

Yes, the Roman road, #9 drive bunker and different tees differentiate them, but not greatly and not so much that they aren't from the same mould.

No surprise the best holes are on the best land, but credit to Harry Hunter for exhibiting such restraint in laying out those holes when he built the original nine-hole course.

[Scott Warren]

And re: The Old Course, I only see 4-5 bunkerless greens. Others may be effectively bunkerless, but not the same thing. There's still sand there.

[Scott Warren]

Clayts,

Missed your post before - I hadn't thought of RAF. But is it as good as Deal?

[James Boon]

Scott,

I can't wait to get back to Deal and it will be great to catch up with you and the others also!

I would put Burnham & Berrow forwards as a course to put up against Deal for the number of bunker less greens / quality of golf course equation.

At Burnham I make it 8 greens that don't have bunkers adjacent (though some have a bunker close) and they are 1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 12, 14 and 15. Those pretty much make up my favourite holes at Burnham and the majority should be considered very fine holes by any account. Surprised that Mr Arble hasn't been on to mention it?

By the way, isn't there a bunker just short right of the 10th green at Deal, making it 8 bunker less greens?

Cheers,

James

[Thomas Dai]

I've played Deal/RCP and enjoyed it very much, much more so than Sandwich/RStG next door.

Not sure if you'd say they are necessarily as 'good' as deal/RCP, depends on your definition I guess, but here a couple of other UK 'bunkerless green' courses not yet mentioned - I'm assuming bunker means 'sand' bunker -

1) Perranporth - hardly any sand bunkers at all, maybe less than 10 on the whole course
2) Minchinhampton Old- no sand bunkers on the course at all
3) various inland/upland courses, Kington being the one that first comes to mind, don't have any sand bunkers

Sand bunkers don't necessarily make a course better or harder, although they probably do make it more attractive on TV and in photographs.

I do like Deal/RCP though.

All the best

[Mike Nuzzo]

There aren't many modern courses without bunkers as the main green defense.

I have unfortunately not been to Deal yet, and I certainly wouldn't pick a fight with Deal.
Noel has been to Wolf Point.

At Wolf Point the following greens are bunkerless: 5, 6, 10 & 15; and at 1, 11, 12 & 17 the bunkers are not within 15 to 25 yards of the green.

Cheers

[Mike_Clayton]

Scott

Royal Ashdown Forest may not be as good as Deal - but it covers the reality that there are no bunkers incredibly well. I only walked it but it seemed that you could play the whole course and barely notice there were no bunkers so interesting were the features to make up for the lack of sand.

[Bart Bradley]

Scott:

I have played both Royal Ashdown and Deal.  Deal is the better course, clearly.

Bart

[Sean_A]

Scott,

I can't wait to get back to Deal and it will be great to catch up with you and the others also!

I would put Burnham & Berrow forwards as a course to put up against Deal for the number of bunker less greens / quality of golf course equation.

At Burnham I make it 8 greens that don't have bunkers adjacent (though some have a bunker close) and they are 1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 12, 14 and 15. Those pretty much make up my favourite holes at Burnham and the majority should be considered very fine holes by any account. Surprised that Mr Arble hasn't been on to mention it?

By the way, isn't there a bunker just short right of the 10th green at Deal, making it 8 bunker less greens?

Cheers,

James

Boonie

I too make 8 bunkerless greens for Deal, but 9 for Burnham because the 13th isn't greenside.  However, I don't think Burnham is quite in Deal's class.  Deal has that extra titch of something (and it may be the short par 6th) which tips the scales. 

I think Pennard has 10 bunkerless greens and it is every bit as fun a course as Deal if not moreso (in any case I prefer Pennard), but again, I think Deal just pips it in quality -  probably down to conditioning and the 17th hole. 

Folks may laugh, but Kington has 18 bunkerless and it isn't far behind Deal in quality.  It may take folks several games to figure this out, but the bright ones eventually do.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Damn, El Gringo just beat me to the obvious mention of Kington.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Scott

Royal Ashdown Forest may not be as good as Deal - but it covers the reality that there are no bunkers incredibly well. I only walked it but it seemed that you could play the whole course and barely notice there were no bunkers so interesting were the features to make up for the lack of sand.

Having just played it for the first time last week I'd agree with this statement. The heather, ridges, swales and streams are used extremely well as greenside hazards.

[Tony_Muldoon]

North Berwick
1,2(?Have to admit the left hand one is close..ish),3,13,14,16,17,18.   = 8


Is it as good as Deal?