Long Grass Around Bunkers as a Design Feature

[Jerry Kluger]

I recently played a Tom Fazio course with some pretty good sized bunkers and some were pretty deep but what I didn't like was the 6 to 8 inch zoysia grass all the way around and between the bunkers.  You could actually lose a ball in the high grass or a ball could hang up in the grass above the bunker so you couldn't even get to it or take a stance.  I was told that this was the way the course was maintained and I just could not believe that Fazio had this in mind when he designed the course.  Merion certainly has some high grass near some bunkers but from what I have seen it is not all the way around the bunker.  Any thoughts on whether an architect would design a course with the intention of having really tall grass completely surrounding all the bunkers?  Can it work? 

[Shaun Feidt]

I never heard of letting zoysia grass grow long around bunkers.  And usually not around the entire bunker complex.  Many of the bunker complexes that I have seen like this are usaully some type of fescue, blue stem, or wire grass.

[Jerry Kluger]

That is what I had seen - this was just impossible and I cannot imagine that it was part of the design of the course.

[PCCraig]

.

[David_Tepper]

Jerry -

I have played a couple of courses in the SF Bay Area where you could either lose a ball in the "rough" around the bunkers or get a ball hung up in that rough so that it does not reach the sand in the bunker.

I am not a fan of this maintenance practice.

DT

[Jerry Kluger]

David: I agree but I wonder if the architect had it in mind - I doubt it.

Pat: I presume that you are talking about the back/top of the bunkers.  As it is, to me at least, it looks like the grass would hold up the balls from going into the bunkers but is that a good idea?  Were the bunkers designed only to be in play when a ball flies into them or bounces short of the rough and bounces in?  A friend who is greens chairman at a top classical course got together with the superintendent and widened out the fairways so the balls would more likely roll into the bunkers as it seemed that architects designed bunkers so that balls would go into them and not that the rough would stop them from going in.

When bunkers are being built at least some of the complex is sloped and to put very deep grass on those slopes is nonsensical to me.

[Rich Goodale]

In my experience, good architects design bunkers that gather poorly hit shots and are meant to be surrounded by fairway height grass, but members/committees don't like gathering bunkers all too quickly decide to go for that look that PatC and his super seem to like.  'Tis a pity.....

Rich

[Carl Rogers]

The several feet of rough around the bunker partially defeats the purpose of the bunker, IMO.

But, I thought that a foot or so of long grass around the bunker was an mowing blade longetivity benefit as the mower would not have to cut up the sand adjacent to the bunker.  I am sure I will stand corrected.....

[Matthew Runde]

I suppose a low, fast-moving ball (such as an amateur's mishit) could skip over the top of the rough a bit, in which case the rough could slow the ball enough so that a shallow bunker could catch it.  That could be fun, but I'd prefer that the bunker were deep to begin with; let the hazard be a hazard.

Another thought: could it be that the rough is designed to create trouble for the skilled player, whose aerial shots are more likely to land firmly in the rough, and who may be more comfortable getting out of sand than getting out of deep grass?

[Jerry Kluger]

6 to 8 inch grass around and between bunkers is extreme.  Does anyone know of another Fazio course where all the bunkers have grass around them that deep?  Has an architect ever had an overall design with that feature? I am convinced that it is the idea of someone other than the architect.

[Terry Lavin]

In my experience, good architects design bunkers that gather poorly hit shots and are meant to be surrounded by fairway height grass, but members/committees don't like gathering bunkers all too quickly decide to go for that look that PatC and his super seem to like.  'Tis a pity.....

Rich

So true.

[Paul Gray]

In my experience, good architects design bunkers that gather poorly hit shots and are meant to be surrounded by fairway height grass, but members/committees don't like gathering bunkers all too quickly decide to go for that look that PatC and his super seem to like.  'Tis a pity.....

Rich

So true.

+1

It's not even simply that members don't like gathering bunkers; frequently I find that many members simply play what the maintenance crew put out there without any thought for what is right or wrong. Sadly, it's often the case that many maintenance crew guys have never been educated to consider anything other than longer grass around sand. Creating apparently narrower approaches, as per Pat C's picture, is all too often simply what is always done.

[Ben Carey]

6 to 8 inch grass around and between bunkers is extreme.  Does anyone know of another Fazio course where all the bunkers have grass around them that deep?  Has an architect ever had an overall design with that feature? I am convinced that it is the idea of someone other than the architect.

Hasentree has a similar practice (and is a Fazio course). They're rarely that deep, but are usually much higher than the surrounding fairways. With 80+ bunkers on the course, it's rather hard to get in to them.

I have a love / hate relationship with the practice.

I've lost more balls between and on the edges of bunkers than anywhere else and the deep perimeters are often very hard to hit out of.

On the flipside it does provide for some excitement during the walk to figure out what the lie is going to look like and whether you've gone in or not (and the answer is usually not). Aesthetically - it does make for a really nice touch - but certainly effects playability.

Here's a pic...

[Jerry Kluger]

Ben: Hasentree is where I played and the grass was ridiculously long.  When a ball gets hung up in that rough on the sidehill it is impossible to hit and almost impossible to find.  I really would like to know what Fazio would think of that maintenance practice. 

[Ben Carey]

I guess that's why I didn't think it was all that strange

I have heard quite a few people comment on it and I think there are a variety of different opinions as to whether or not Fazio intended it to be this way or not. I did hear people say that he did, but not sure of the truth of the statement.

I haven't played Hasentree in a few months, but I played a few times a week through all of last year. It is pretty standard during the summer / spring. It's cut much shorter in the fall / winter.

[JimB]

Hard for me to believe this is a Fazio design feature given the last three Fazio's I've seen:

The Quarry LQ


Kuki'o


The Preserve

[Jerry Kluger]

If we presume that Fazio didn't intend that the grass be so long then why do you think that they are doing it?  I know that some people feel that technology has made the game easier but I cannot imagine that anyone would want to be a member of a club where they make the course so much more difficult than the way it was designed.  The bunkers are big and deep and enough of challenge to recover from; the deep long grass just makes it impossible.

[Bill_McBride]

Which do you prefer, this?



Or this?

[Thomas Dai]

Grass longer than fairway length at the entrance or sides or a sand bunker is thoroughly objectionable IMO. Bad shots should not be held back from rolling into bunkers.

I don't object to longer grass, especially of the whispy, native kind, on the greenside slope of bunker though, at least this stops the duffed bunker shot that only just carry's the lip rolling onto the green.

All the best

[Joe Hancock]

Which do you prefer, this?



Or this?

Bill,

I'll answer your question with another question; Which do you think I prefer, and why?

Hope you're well,

Joe

[Jerry Kluger]

Thomas: What is really bad about the condition is that it is far more difficult to recover from the deep grass than it is from the bunkers.

[Greg Taylor]

Putting aide the visual impact, I would question the proportionality of a ball landing in a bunker and it not really being a penalty, and yet a ball landing just outside the bunker is in 6-8 inch rough and everything that goes with it; to me that is not fair.

If you hit a bad shot then OK be penalised, hit a really bad shot and potential for a lost ball/drop then fine... but with rough around a bunker like that it becomes a lottery and dare I say "unfair".

No?!

[Bill_McBride]

Which do you prefer, this?



Or this?

Bill,

I'll answer your question with another question; Which do you think I prefer, and why?

Hope you're well,

Joe

Which hat would you be wearing, GCA geek or superintendent?

All is well except my golf game is AWOL.  thanks!

[Jim Hoak]

This is a somewhat different situation than you ask it seems, but many courses have long whispy grass right on the edge of bunkers--called "whiskers" or "eyebrows" or "eyelashes."  (I've seen all 3 names.)  I like that on seaside courses--and that was presumably done to keep sand somewhat from blowing out of bunkers.  But I think it looks stupid and pretentious on non-seaside courses.

[Jonathan Davison]

How many think it looks wrong on the pictures from Hidden Creek ??

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/hidden-creek-golf-club/