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BHoover

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2013, 09:17:24 AM »
Someone at the Columbus qualifier finished at +22, which included an 89, yes an 89. Something tells me he may be receiving a letter from the USGA.
 

No letter to a guy who already made it through local.
It happens.
there's golf, and then there's tunamint golf, especially at a site like Columbus loaded with Tour players

My mistake.  But I'm still bitter that I didn't get to see Holly Sonders up close and personal.   ;)

Terry Lavin

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2013, 02:37:03 PM »
I know that there are a lot of great stories written as a result of sectional qualifying, but in truth, I think it's a bit of a joke because the field winds up being diluted by guys who have no earthly chance to win the championship.  It gives plenty of easy copy to lazy journalists and it surely is something that makes it into a lot of local obituaries down the road, but it does nothing to add to the lluster of the US Open.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JMEvensky

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2013, 02:49:14 PM »

I know that there are a lot of great stories written as a result of sectional qualifying, but in truth, I think it's a bit of a joke because the field winds up being diluted by guys who have no earthly chance to win the championship.  It gives plenty of easy copy to lazy journalists and it surely is something that makes it into a lot of local obituaries down the road, but it does nothing to add to the lluster of the US Open.



Respectfully disagree.

I concede that few qualifiers have any chance of winning the Open.But,for a lot of them,that's really not the goal.

For some people,just having a handicap low enough to enter local qualifying is a big accomplishment.For others,making it through the local and getting the opportunity to tee it up in a sectional-serious competition- is a huge deal.Only a handful have any reasonable expectation of making it all the way to Merion--and everyone playing knows this.

This is pure competitive golf--play well and you get to move forward.That's why they call it an OPEN.

Terry Lavin

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2013, 02:51:30 PM »
I understand that mine is perhaps a churlish and probably a minority view.  It just irks me that a number of very qualified and competitive touring professionals are edged out by people with no shot at winning.  It makes the field demostrably weaker, even weaker than the PGA which has a bunch of club pros in the field.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tony_Chapman

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2013, 02:58:23 PM »
Not very often that we get a Husker advance through Sectional qualifying, but McCook native Brandon Crick did just that in Memphis yesterday shooting 5-under at Colonial Country Club and advancing to Merion. Our local qualifier here generally goes to die at the sectional so he'll have plenty of support. Brandon was a fine amateur and played at Gonzaga and Nebraska.

JMEvensky

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2013, 03:13:51 PM »

It just irks me that a number of very qualified and competitive touring professionals are edged out by people with no shot at winning. 


The guys who qualify ahead of these competitive touring professionals have a much better chance at winning--they made the field.

A spot in the US Open isn't a sinecure and exemptions aren't handed out like weekly PGAT events.You want to play in the US Open,you have to play 36 holes better than most of the guys who show up.

How can you be opposed to a tournament field as meritocratic as this one?


Terry Lavin

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2013, 03:25:17 PM »
I'm opposed because it inspires a flukey qualifier who can't win.  I'm opposed because that makes the field weaker.  I'm opposed because the whole process may have made sense five or six decades ago when one of the qualifiers could hypothetically win.  I'm opposed because it winds up being nothing more than easy copy for lazy journalists, rather than doing something for the quality of the event.

If that sounds grumpy or elitist, I make no apology.  I get where you're coming from and I readily admit that most would agree with your view that it's a feel good story, but I can't go there with you.  I was involved in the Open ten years ago at Olympia and all you have to do is change the names this year and it's the same old hackneyed stuff.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2013, 03:43:51 PM »
TL--I see your point about the coverage of the Sectionals and I agree. Lucky for me I have a very low opinion of reporters to begin with so I'm rarely disappointed.

I was merely speaking of the playing part.As someone who grew up playing competitively,and grew up with some guys who could really play competitively,I just remember how cool it is to know that any schmuck can play in the US Open--if he plays well enough.

Dan Kelly

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2013, 03:55:29 PM »
I know that there are a lot of great stories written as a result of sectional qualifying, but in truth, I think it's a bit of a joke because the field winds up being diluted by guys who have no earthly chance to win the championship.  It gives plenty of easy copy to lazy journalists and it surely is something that makes it into a lot of local obituaries down the road, but it does nothing to add to the lluster of the US Open.

Terry --

I find it pleasant, once in a while, to disagree completely and absolutely and emphatically with every word of something (except, possibly, "lazy").

This is one such case.

I'm guessing Steve Jones agrees with me.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tim_Cronin

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2013, 04:09:35 PM »
Sectional qualifiers winning the U.S. Open:

2009 - Lucas Glover

2005 - Michael Campbell

1996 - Steve Jones

1969 - Orville Moody (advanced from local qualifying)

Were these four U.S. Open fields weaker because a sectional qualifier won? I think not.

Was the 2012 field weaker because John Peterson was in it? He then had no status on any tour and tied for fourth. Was it weaker because Kevin Chappell was in it? He tied for 10th, and the money he earned helped him to 125th on the money list, and a PGA Tour card for this year.

Was the 1967 field weaker because Lee Trevino was in it? He finished fifth at Baltusrol, won $6,000, went on the Tour full time, and won the Open the following year, becoming the first player to score four rounds under par (and in the 60s) in an Open.

Qualifying is what makes the U.S. Open (and the Open Championship) open. The field may be weaker, but it allows for surprises in a way the Masters, PGA and Players do not.

Yes to surprises. Yes to qualifying.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Jim Nelson

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2013, 04:18:20 PM »
Thanks, Daryl.  I looked at weather.com this evening, which said it was blowing NW 20 mph right now, so the wind must have picked up, as 20 mph is a significant challenge.  10-12 mph is very manageable.

I'm sure you enjoyed watching the players play the course.  Thanks for checking in.

Yes, it did get a little breezy toward 5pm, but nothing like being at Pac Dunes or Ballyneal.  Tumble Creek has extremely wide driving areas so wind was not a big deal off the tee.  The par 3s were a bit tricky as 3 of them play cross wind.  Those greens were tough to hit and hold.  It seemed a lot of shots were lost around the greens with missed judged pitch shots.  Either woefully short or running far past the hole. One exception was eventual qualifier Cheng-Tsung Pan from UofW.  His short game was excellent with pitch-in birdies on 11 and 16 in the second round after ending up with very tough short side lies.
Daryl:  Did the USGA set up the course?  Were the greens faster than normal?  Were they faster than they should be for the design of the greens?  Anybody else with knowledge of the courses and setups for the Sectionals should feel free to chime in, but I'm curious about the USGA's involvement in the course or lack thereof.
I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world.  This makes it hard to plan the day.  E. B. White

Tony_Chapman

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2013, 04:32:40 PM »
I'm opposed because it inspires a flukey qualifier who can't win.  I'm opposed because that makes the field weaker.  I'm opposed because the whole process may have made sense five or six decades ago when one of the qualifiers could hypothetically win.  I'm opposed because it winds up being nothing more than easy copy for lazy journalists, rather than doing something for the quality of the event.

If that sounds grumpy or elitist, I make no apology.  I get where you're coming from and I readily admit that most would agree with your view that it's a feel good story, but I can't go there with you.  I was involved in the Open ten years ago at Olympia and all you have to do is change the names this year and it's the same old hackneyed stuff.

I hope you don't watch the NCAA basketball tournament.  ;D

Terry Lavin

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2013, 05:53:08 PM »
Sectional qualifiers winning the U.S. Open:

2009 - Lucas Glover

2005 - Michael Campbell

1996 - Steve Jones

1969 - Orville Moody (advanced from local qualifying)

Were these four U.S. Open fields weaker because a sectional qualifier won? I think not.



No the fields aren't weaker if pros get in via qualifying. They weaker because of the ten guys named Moe got in only to shoot 84/88 and miss the cut. The only positive point you make is that the grueling process allows a pro to get in and win by doing well at a section qualifier. The ten guys named Moe do nothing more than eliminate a pro's chance to get in and win. All for some easy to write human interest stories.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 05:56:45 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2013, 05:57:33 PM »
Thanks, Daryl.  I looked at weather.com this evening, which said it was blowing NW 20 mph right now, so the wind must have picked up, as 20 mph is a significant challenge.  10-12 mph is very manageable.

I'm sure you enjoyed watching the players play the course.  Thanks for checking in.

Yes, it did get a little breezy toward 5pm, but nothing like being at Pac Dunes or Ballyneal.  Tumble Creek has extremely wide driving areas so wind was not a big deal off the tee.  The par 3s were a bit tricky as 3 of them play cross wind.  Those greens were tough to hit and hold.  It seemed a lot of shots were lost around the greens with missed judged pitch shots.  Either woefully short or running far past the hole. One exception was eventual qualifier Cheng-Tsung Pan from UofW.  His short game was excellent with pitch-in birdies on 11 and 16 in the second round after ending up with very tough short side lies.
Daryl:  Did the USGA set up the course?  Were the greens faster than normal?  Were they faster than they should be for the design of the greens?  Anybody else with knowledge of the courses and setups for the Sectionals should feel free to chime in, but I'm curious about the USGA's involvement in the course or lack thereof.

Jim,

Many times during the day that exact question was asked of our GM and Super.  Truth is that the course was only slightly harder than a normal Monday in early June. 

Greens quick, but only slightly more than normal.  I didn't hear an exact stimp reading but they were pretty much the same as the week before for the members play.  The greens are tricky.  Not as wild as Ballyneal or Pac Dunes, but with the elevation there are some big breaks.  Lots of ways to get fooled without local knowledge.  Not uncommon to have a lengthy putt with 3 breaks that are puzzling to read. 

As for around the greens, if I had to guess I would say they used less water in that area than they might in a normal spring.  The goal there was to avoid balls coming in short of the green and biting too much.  The surrounds played more like a transition from fairway to green.  Faster and firmer than the fairway, but not as f&f as the green.  Members are loving that and asking the Super to try to have it play that way all year.

Bunkers are medium depth with fairway bunkers not quite a full shot penalty.

As I said before, fairways are generous, but that is for a good reason.  Balls far off line are going to be lost in the forest.  You might be looking at an 80 to 90 yard wide landing zone, but left or right of that is gonzo.  Watching pretty much all day, I only say 2 lost balls and heard about two others. 

Tees were all the way back on every hole but one.  That made sense because even from the back it was only 7100 yards. (also that's at 2000 feet elevation)  The  USGA  did change the 515 yard par 5 15th to a 485 yard par 4.  It played downwind so, with the players length it was a manageable par 4.   That change made the course a par 70 layout for the tournament.  Prior to the tournament the chatter here was that since the course is so short, that the players would light it up.  Did not work out that way!

Wind was a factor for some that struggled to keep the ball down especially on par 3s.  I personally don't t think the wind was the issue even though the Golf Channel seemed to want to use that as the reason for higher scores all day.  Winn McMurry's hair stayed perfect all day so it could not have been that bad!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2013, 06:26:34 PM »
I understand that mine is perhaps a churlish and probably a minority view.  It just irks me that a number of very qualified and competitive touring professionals are edged out by people with no shot at winning.  It makes the field demostrably weaker, even weaker than the PGA which has a bunch of club pros in the field.

Terry,
It's called the US OPEN.
That's the whole point.
I would in fact make EVERYBODY qualify, like they used to in the old days, especially the British Open.
To just pick 144 players players based on points would just be another snoozer World Championships, or whatever they call those things.......
We get to see that crap every week.

and wouldn't you say a "qualified and competitive" touring professional has ample opportunity to get via exemptions available to top players, and in the absence of that by qualifying?
and if he can't earn a spot via an exemption (there are about a hundred of them) or qualifying(the first stage of which he is exempt) , does he himself really have a chance to win???
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 06:41:32 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2013, 07:02:57 PM »
Sectional qualifiers winning the U.S. Open:

2009 - Lucas Glover

2005 - Michael Campbell

1996 - Steve Jones

1969 - Orville Moody (advanced from local qualifying)

Were these four U.S. Open fields weaker because a sectional qualifier won? I think not.



No the fields aren't weaker if pros get in via qualifying. They weaker because of the ten guys named Moe got in only to shoot 84/88 and miss the cut. The only positive point you make is that the grueling process allows a pro to get in and win by doing well at a section qualifier. The ten guys named Moe do nothing more than eliminate a pro's chance to get in and win. All for some easy to write human interest stories.

I made it to Sectionals once. I was a H.S. Senior and not playing anywhere in the fall. No stories about me (ok, in my H.S. newspaper I think there was a mention), which honestly I was happy about as I think those pieces are largely crap (you hear me Rick Reily!).

I never had a chance and was on my way to shooting 85 myself at one point (recovered nicely, but still I looked like a hack for the first 12 holes), but it was the greatest competitive golf experience I've ever had. A grueling day that left me exhausted but feeling accomplished for giving it my all and just making it there. I ended the day middle of the pack, which was a huge deal to me, and for every player who "diluted the field", there's still a chance they could be Beau Hossler and in the lead on the weekend. Don't send us kids to the metaphorical gas chambers just because you feel you owed it to us, your honor!  ;)

IMO, the open qualifying (with a low enough handicap to enter local) is what makes the event special.

mike_beene

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2013, 07:38:36 PM »
Our course was set up by the USGA and it was no different than the club championship or most Saturday sit-ups .We actually play harder I'm the winter and fall I think. The greens were left at the usual speed because any faster and the USGA correctly said the slope on the greens is too much. Two of the 4 players who qualified would have an outside chance( Spieth and even Loar who leads the Nationwide).Several former major champions did not qualify but they would not have made the field any stronger(Leanard,Hamilton,Beem).Ryan Palmer lost in a playoff.The unfair side might be that both Loar and Spieth play the course frequently but some of the others do also.That OU golf coach is extremely nice and only missed by a shot.How many players in any major or PGA tournament have a chance?For that matter, of the 64 playing in our sectional the results were pretty predictable.

Terry Lavin

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2013, 07:38:51 PM »
Lets see how much better these "extra" players do this year. Then you guys can try to show me what they added to the championship. Besides touching sidebar stories.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2013, 08:15:36 PM »
Your honor,

They make the championship open in reality as well as open in name. Everyone knows that only about 40 players (your estimate may vary) have a shot to win every week they tee it up. But of the other 116, perhaps a dozen are so on their game during Open week that they too have a chance.

And a chance (cue the bugler) is what the U.S., and the U.S. Open, is all about.

The only thing wrong with Open qualifying is the local going only 18, rather than the former 36. The USGA was having trouble getting sites so cut the first stage in half, but added sectional spots to take in those who didn't have red hot single rounds.

The newspaper you read these days has room for a sidebar? I'm impressed. Where do I send my resume?

Sincerely,
  A guy who sometimes writes sidebar stories, touching or otherwise.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2013, 09:19:41 PM »
The best thing about the US Open is the qualifying to get in and perhaps making something happen its rare but not impossible.  There used to be other great sporting events but many of them have been ruined.

I remember the Miracle on Ice, which I saw live, a bunch of scrappy college kids took on the worlds best pros and won.  The basketball Olympics was far better when it was also full of college kids than watching Lebron and company struggle to beat France.  Yes, I know they are the best, everyone knows that so why have them there.

So in my opinion it would be a shame to see the qualifying go away so some more pros who can't manage to qualify during a full season off opportunities can get in and in turn take away from a thrill of a lifetime or a stepping stone to bigger and better things for someone with less opportunities.

While statistically the field is made weaker with qualifying it a trade off well worth it IMHO.

In fact they should make everyone qualify no reason not to but money. 

Quite honestly there should be more open spots for qualifiers in all tour events as opposed to a closed tour.  Millionaires with not much better chance to win is hardly compelling or interesting sport.

Dan


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2013, 09:27:21 PM »
The best thing about the US Open is the qualifying to get in and perhaps making something happen its rare but not impossible.  There used to be other great sporting events but many of them have been ruined.

I remember the Miracle on Ice, which I saw live, a bunch of scrappy college kids took on the worlds best pros and won.  The basketball Olympics was far better when it was also full of college kids than watching Lebron and company struggle to beat France.  Yes, I know they are the best, everyone knows that so why have them there.

So in my opinion it would be a shame to see the qualifying go away so some more pros who can't manage to qualify during a full season off opportunities can get in and in turn take away from a thrill of a lifetime or a stepping stone to bigger and better things for someone with less opportunities.

While statistically the field is made weaker with qualifying it a trade off well worth it IMHO.

In fact they should make everyone qualify no reason not to but money. 

Quite honestly there should be more open spots for qualifiers in all tour events as opposed to a closed tour.  Millionaires with not much better chance to win is hardly compelling or interesting sport.

Dan



+1
 
Terry,
Who's the best player not in the US Open this year?
and what chance exactly does HE have to win? ;) ;) ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2013, 10:00:13 PM »
Terry,
You have a really sour approach to the US Open.  Many players who qualified through both stages have gone on to become major champions--I guess Michelson and Duval really messed up the 1990 tournament.  There are so many players  who came of age in their US Open debuts, that it would fill a whole page.  The fact of the matter is that there are more opportunities to be exempt than ever before, so those who are "forced" to go  through sectional qualifying cannot, and should not take it lightley.
I happen to have participated in quite a few sectionals.  I have been paired with a couple names who thought they were too good for the sectionals and they flamed out.  Played behind a name who was  down on his game but had a great attitude and he found a way to gut it out and eventually he truned his career around.  The qualifying process is one of the things that makes the US Open special!
Most importantly, I hit the longest drive on #1 at Olympic in the 2nd round in 1998 and the 2nd best shot into 18 that round--I made it because of the great instructional help of Jeff Warne!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 11:05:45 PM by Robert Mercer Deruntz »

Terry Lavin

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2013, 11:11:50 AM »
So, among those who are chiding me for my supposedly churlish attitude on this issue, what is your favorite qualifier story?  Is there a Francis Ouimet IV our there?  A garage mechanic with a scratch handicap who beat a passel of pros enroute to a spot in the Open?  Somebody who hasn't played competitive golf in years who put his game back together?  Based on my admittedly cursory review of the qualifiers, there were approximately eight amateur qualifiers, six of whom are top-notch college golfers (including the NCAA individual champ, Max Homa), a high school senior phenom who is headed to U of Texas and a club pro from Trump International in Palm Beach.  For all of the pomp and circumstance of the many local qualifying sites and the eleven sectional sites, this is the group of non-professionals that made the cut.  What am I missing here?  The best I can conjure up is that one of the many pros who got in through sectional qualifiers might do well in the tournament or perhaps one or two of the amateurs might make the cut.  From last year at Olympic, I can vaguely recall the burly kid from Texas that played over the weekend.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 11:19:27 AM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JMEvensky

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Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2013, 11:19:22 AM »
TL,not trying to be a prick,but I'd bet that those arguing in favor of the current qualifying set up have a "playing" perspective as opposed to a "watching the Open on TV" perspective.

Like you,in a perfect world,I'd want the Open to have the best 150 players in the world.We just have a different idea of who those 150 players are that particular week.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One of the great days in American golf
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2013, 11:21:27 AM »
JME,

Fair enough.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

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