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Jim Johnson

A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos New
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2013, 12:04:09 AM »
February 2009 … Dave Druzisky wrote …                                                                                                                        
Since you asked...it is one of the few courses in that market area that "really" can inspire thought, provide a sporting challenge, exhibits many interesting design features in application and on top of that - especially for that market - was not created to add premium to adjacent housing.  That all adds up to me as "real golf" which is fun and interesting. Not only eye candy.





The superbly designed 13th hole is a long dogleg right par-4 named “Serpentine”, and as the yardage book states, it’s the longest par-4 on the course and uphill all the way. The hole heads south and then turns right (southwest) around a small hill, calling for a power fade off the tee, and then winds uphill on the second shot around a ridge on the left, the shot calling for a draw, into a wonderful green complex, with a big bunker short right, exactly where you want to bail out, or lay up to if you’ve taken the chicken shot/safe route left off the tee. The green itself features a higher back shelf, which adds to the strategy of the hole/decision off the tee.

If you take the "alps" path off the tee and hit it over a bunker-laden hill (I'll call it “Bunker Hill”) to a blind spot out in the fairway, you can have less than 200 yards in, and a full view of the green.  The more conservative route, left off the tee, leaves you a 220+ yard blind approach shot, and unless your natural shot is a draw, it’s a mighty uncomfortable position to be in (trust me!), knowing your straight shot or fade won’t end up on or near the green, and will probably finish in that bunker, unless you have the guts to take it over the ridge left of the fairway. In taking it directly over that ridge you’ll be faced with about a 190 yard carry, and then you’ll have about 60 yards of room, the way the green and its surrounds are angled, before running it through the fairway on the back right of the green.

Standing on the tee, I think the natural inclination is to knock it left of “Bunker Hill”, but it’s the wrong thing to do. Unless you’ve played the course before or have the yardage guide in your pocket, however, that’s probably the shot you feel like taking, with the view you’re taking in from the tee.

It’s a great hole, probably my favorite on the course. There’s a decision to be made on the tee, and then there’s a decision to be made on the approach shot. It doesn’t get much better than that. Unfortunately, the conditions could (get better), and hopefully they do. The fairway was in pretty rough shape, with several areas having little turf on them. There were also several sandy patches on either side of the fairway up near the green, although looking at the photos suggests something like a sandbelt look to them. The green was in relatively good shape (a small spot in the middle and a sandy area on the fringe), as were the tees.

Standing on top of “Bunker Hill” offered a fresh perspective of the hole – not that I wanted to be up there, as I was looking for my tee shot, which we ultimately found at the bottom of it. The big bunker carved into the face of the hill is pretty cool.

Ran’s excellent review of Apache Stronghold… Similar in concept to the 6th at Royal Melbourne (West) (but with a markedly different appearance) the player is expected to drive over the bunkers at the corner. Most importantly, though, is that the hole was designed for this play as there is ample fairway over the bunkers to contain such a drive. One of the authors’ pet peeves is the dog-leg hole whose fairway narrows to such a degree just past the corner that a tee shot that carries the trouble at the corner has little chance of remaining in the fairway (e.g., the 15th at Bay Hill). The approach to the 13th is first class, through a valley to a sloping green.


Looking out from the Apache tee, staring at “Bunker Hill”; the fairway curves right around it…


Left of Bunker Hill, aka the long way home…


On the left flank of Bunker Hill…


On top of Bunker Hill, looking back toward the tees…


The far side of Bunker Hill, with a great view of the green…


Right center of the fairway, 200 yards out, with a decent view of the green…


Left center of the fairway, 200 yards out (not much of a view of the green from here)…


The perfect spot for some guy to put a bunker (short right of the green)…


From behind the green…


Note the higher back shelf…



« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:24:15 AM by Jim Johnson »

Jim Johnson

Re: A visit to Apache Stronghold (Arizona), with photos (holes #1-12)
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2013, 11:17:17 AM »
For those that have been there in the summer - does the extra elevation cool the temperature enough that a well run great course in good condition would be an attractive destination for Scottsdale residents in the summer?  

My guess is no.  

I received an email yesterday from an admirer of the golf course (his 2nd favorite in the world) who mentioned to me that the high yesterday at Apache Stronghold was 83 degrees, and that Scottsdale was 101 degrees in the shade.

(I notice that today will be 91 degrees at Apache Stronghold, 107 in Scottsdale).
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 11:23:38 AM by Jim Johnson »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: A visit to Apache Stronghold (Arizona), with photos (holes #1-12)
« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2013, 02:44:18 PM »
For those that have been there in the summer - does the extra elevation cool the temperature enough that a well run great course in good condition would be an attractive destination for Scottsdale residents in the summer?  

My guess is no.  

I received an email yesterday from an admirer of the golf course (his 2nd favorite in the world) who mentioned to me that the high yesterday at Apache Stronghold was 83 degrees, and that Scottsdale was 101 degrees in the shade.

(I notice that today will be 91 degrees at Apache Stronghold, 107 in Scottsdale).

That's about the average difference.  We figured it was 10-15 degrees cooler in Globe than down in the Valley most any time during the year.  Not the 25-degree difference from Phoenix to Flagstaff, but significant.  That makes spring and fall the perfect times to visit, but summer is not ridiculously hot.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A visit to Apache Stronghold (Arizona), with photos (holes #1-13)
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2013, 09:38:11 PM »
I think I am most disappointed at how the arroyo on #10 has been allowed to grass over.  It was a daunting hazard, now it has all the charm of the kikuyu barranca at Riviera.  I thought it was the hardest hole on the course before unless played for bogey with two six irons down the left fairway.  Now, looks like any kind of a tee shot will result in a fairway metal second up around the green. 

Jim Johnson

A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos New
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2013, 11:09:02 PM »
September 2009 … Jonathan Cummings wrote …                                                                                                            
Apache Stronghold??  This forum should put our money together and buy the place.  The GCA Course could then be our headquarters and Mecca … Apache is some of the best architecture in modern golf.  Naysayers who insist they will only reassess their views when it’s at Augusta conditions should be ignored.  The land forms, flow, routing and theme persist even before the place was grassed.  AS should be a required study in modern gca.





“Redan”, the par-3 14th hole, sits on the highest part of the property, with the green perched on a hillside. Heading east, it has wonderful vistas, with 360-degree views.
 
Personally/sadistically, I wish the hole was about 40 yards longer. From the “Apache” tee (146 yards on this hole; 6,524 yards total) I was hitting 8-iron and 9-iron on my tee shots. I also tried some shots from the “Stronghold” tee (186 yards) with a hybrid into the breeze and I felt that this was the proper club for me on this type of hole. That also shortened the walk 40 yards for me in the long uphill walk from the 13th green to the 14th tee (still 160 yards via cart path; 125 yards via the “jump when you see a snake” path through the desert).

Don’t go long off the tee, there’s a nasty downslope at the back left which my wife discovered on our first round.

This green was easily in the worst shape of all the greens on the course, which was unfortunate, given the nature of playing a “Redan” style par-3. All in all, though, a great hole.

“On hole 14, we reduced the tilt of Redan (natural slope about 10%).” (Tom Doak Nov ’03)  
  
“I first met Kye (Goalby) at Apache Stronghold.  If it wasn't for his efforts in the creation of Apache Stronghold it wouldn't have turned out as good as it did.  In fact when Kye shaped in the first rendition of the par three 14th hole (the Redan ) it was one of the coolest greens I had ever seen.” (Jim Urbina, June ’10)


The view from the Apache tee…


Standing on the Stronghold (back) tee…


Yup, that’s a big thick cactus on the edge of that front bunker…


Great views…


Looking back on the Redan…



« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:24:46 AM by Jim Johnson »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A visit to Apache Stronghold (Arizona), with photos (holes #1-14)
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2013, 02:59:02 PM »
Jim, I can't thank you enough for the tour. Well done, looking forward to the rest.

For those considering a summer time visit, put in a few weeks loading shirts at my sweatshop in August and it will seem downright coooooool when you tee it up. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim Johnson

A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos New
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2013, 02:33:30 PM »
June 2011 … Jason Topp wrote …                                                                                                                            
Apache Stronghold would be my favorite Doak course if it was maintained properly.





“Knob Hill”, a long downhill par-5, is a dramatic hole with a fun tee shot and a neat green complex. The teeshot plays from a very high elevated tee, heading straight north, down to a big wide fairway which bends to the right at almost 90 degrees, and heads east. You need to knock it 225+ yards off the (Apache) tee or you’ll be faced with a blind second shot over the desert on the right to reach fairway again. The bunkering to the right of the layup area and greenside are great, and the angled green is a beauty, with a neat lower pin position back right. You’ll want to come in from the left side as the greenside bunker eats into the middle of the green on the right side, but there’s a bunker 90 yards short of the green on the left edge of the fairway to negotiate first. There’s also a swale which runs diagonally across the fairway from the left fairway bunker over to the right of the greenside bunker.

Re: wind … former super Ron Mahaffey had this to say in February 2004[/b] … the course plays different each season.  If you read Matt Ward’s comments he played with an east to west wind, which is seen mainly during the winter months … the spring brings stronger west to east winds and it will add 20 to 30 yards to holes 5, 6, 12, 13 & 17. The summers are warm by some standards (high 90's-low 100's) but really pleasant for natives from the southwest.  The fall is my choice season, no wind, warm days and pleasant nights.

Around the dogleg corner, the playing corridor averages about 75 yards in width. Interestingly, there’s a big swoop of turf to the right of the fairway (closest to the tees) which widens out the corridor to about 100 yards in width, about 150 yards from the green. So, depending on the season and the wind (probably a crosswind off the tee, according to Ron’s comments above), if you’re feeling brave, and can carry your teeshot 265 yards off the (Apache) tee and over the desert and a low ridge on the right, you’ll be rewarded with a second shot of 150 or less and a solid chance at birdie or better on this interesting par-5.

An arroyo between the green and the 16th tees comes perilously close to the back of the green, within 15 feet or so of the back fringe actually. Keep in mind that the green slopes from the front left to the back right.

The Apache tee showed a little bit of wear (some fist sized scars), the fairway was quite good (a handful of small bare patches) and featured some really nice movement at the corner of the dogleg and down along the right side, the green was in really good shape except for a couple of 3-foot long scrapes, but the sand in the large bunkers to the right of the fairway needs work, an eyesore considering how dramatic they could be with some help. Spots of grass are in one big bunker while just feet away the tracks of a Sandpro are clearly visible. The steep greenside bunker is in the most need of work however, as evidenced by the photos.

Those ravines at Apache Stronghold occasionally have a lot of water going down them ... as for the 15th, it might have been interesting with the green shorter as you describe, but that ravine in back is way too active to push it back that way. Tom Doak (November 2003)

Notice the difference in the fairway cut, 2007 (top) and 2010 (bottom)...




Standing on the Apache tee, high above the fairway…


The beginning of the fairway, before it bends around to the right…


About 300 out…


Near the right edge of the fairway, about 150 yards out (and near where you'd be, if you had the guts and could carry it far enough to get over the desert and ridge on your teeshot)…


Zoomed in at the green…


85 yards out, on the right edge of the fairway (note the grass in the left half of the bunker, and the Sandpro tracks in the right half)…


About 75 yards out, on the edge of the swale…


A closer look at the bunkering and the swale running through the fairway…


The deep greenside bunker, right edge of green…



Looking back on the 15th…



« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:25:40 AM by Jim Johnson »

Jim Johnson

A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos New
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2013, 01:46:47 AM »
January 2012 … Jason Topp wrote …                                                                                                                          
I thought the place had incredibly interesting terrain used very well … the place was a terrific walk. It has a very expansive feel and I ditched the cart after nine holes when I realized it was not needed.  ... There are a ton of very interesting land formations that are used in a way to make the course enjoyable but not an exercise in mountain climbing.  The terrain is constantly shifting in both direction, slope, and elevation.  I thought the greens had the best combination of interesting contour without becoming a chore.

The two other Doak courses I would rate most highly have some drawbacks not present at Apache Stronghold. For me, Pacific feels a bit cramped.  Perhaps that feeling is due to the nature of the first and eighteenth holes. I find the green undulations a bit tiring after a while.  Sometimes I want to have a manageable par if I have managed to hit a green in regulation.

Barnbougle carries the disadvantage of a largely straight out and back routing resulting in long series of holes in similar wind conditions.
  
When you add the plusses and minuses together of each course (Apache Stronghold, Pacific Dunes, and Barnbougle) and imagine Apache Stronghold maintained in the manner it could be maintained, I suspect I would choose Apache first over those other options.  






The second of back-to-back par-5’s at Apache Stronghold, “Bucket Mountain” plays southeast and is reachable but one must avoid the fairway bunker 50 yards in front of the green smack dab in the middle of the fairway. The decision on how to play the hole must be made on the tee … take a shot at a birdie (or better), by hauling out the big stick and having a go at reaching that far left fairway (240 yards off the Apache tee, 310 off the Stronghold tee)… or play it safe, hitting a hybrid or long iron off the tee to the right side fairway, settling for par with perhaps a chance at a birdie with a good putt or a close approach shot.
 
A wide arroyo (the Gilson Wash) bisects the hole, producing big separation between the two fairways. If you choose to play it “safe” by driving down the right fairway, you must then deal with that fairway bunker just short of the green. A deep bunker flanks the green short right, making a long approach shot from the right hand fairway that much more difficult, necessitating a carry of 200+ yards. There is room to run it up onto the left half of the green, but if the pin is cut in the back right, 3-putts could become common, as the green is 40 yards wide and has a swale in the middle of it running front-back, effectively dividing the green into two halves. With that greenside bunker lurking on the front right, you really want to favor the left side of the fairway coming into the green, but you’ll have to avoid a bunker on the left edge of the fairway some 75 yards short of the green.
  
Personally, I wish the vegetation between the tees and the left fairway was cut back somewhat to give golfers a better view of that left fairway and perhaps entice them more to give it a go. I never really considered it, settling instead on the right side fairway in both of our rounds, but even then, lost the first tee shot around the ridge on the right, and the next day had an unplayable lie in Gilson wash after hitting what we both thought was a perfect teeshot to the left edge of the right side fairway only to discover that the ball had trickled all the way down into the wash and up against some vegetation.

Condition-wise, the tees were in decent shape, the two fairways were “okay” (some bare spots), the Gilson wash was, well, wide(!), the center bunker and the left side bunker both had good sand in them but the right greenside bunker needed some work, and the green was in reasonable shape but had a 5-foot long spot near the fringe and several hand-sized or foot-sized spots.

This hole reminded both of us of the 16th hole at “Sagebrush” in British Columbia, Canada (Whitman, Zokol, Suny with assistance from GCAtlas’s Jeff Mingay). This one’s definitely shorter and flatter, but it’s still reminiscent of the hole at Sagebrush for some reason.

2012 aerial photo...



Views from the Apache tee (the left fairway is barely visible)…


Looking across the small arroyo (which feeds into Gilson Wash) which separates the back tees from the forward tee…


In the right side fairway, 250+ yards from the green…


The view from the right side fairway over the Gilson Wash, 240 yards out…


126 yards out…


67 yards out, looking over the center bunker…


Looking at the green from the left side…


From the front…


« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:26:28 AM by Jim Johnson »

Jim Johnson

A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos New
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2013, 11:08:56 PM »
February 2012 … Scott Wood wrote …                                                                                                                        
Tom Doak designed a wonderful, wonderful golf course … the green contours are absolutely incredibly challenging without the extremes that many subsequent TD courses exhibit in spots … in some ways this may be, imo, one of Doak's best designs......variation of holes, strategy, f&f, angles all compelling ... and the ride from Phoenix, approximately an hour+ is enjoyable and scenic.

One of his better designs: have played many TD USA courses, and think the totality of design (mix/variety of holes, interestingly complex greens, without being "overdone", elevation changes, angles)...make it one of his better designs...a very subjective pov, but I do get around...have played High Pointe, Beechtree, Quail Crossing, Black Forest, Stonewall, Pac Dunes, OM, Stone Eagle, Tumble Creek, Rock Creek, Lost Dunes, and Ballyneal, and the co-design @ Sebonack, and the renovation @ Atlantic City....






The par-3 17th hole, “Cliffhanger”, plays southwest over the Gilson Wash – its last crossing on the course – to one of the best green complexes at Apache Stronghold.  There’s lots of room to the left of the green and short of the green to miss, with plenty of trouble on the right to get into.  The highest part of the green is in the back on a shelf, with the front two thirds divided by a spine which falls away on both sides. The Gilson Wash is quite wide and may present some problems for golfers playing from a set of tees too far back. The hole plays slightly uphill, but the green itself is quite large and accommodating, measuring 42 yards from front to back.
 
The grass on the green was in real good shape except for several distinct sandy patches (see photos). The bunkering on the right side looked to be in fair shape although (thankfully) I never made it over there so can only judge from my photos, taken from the path leading up to the 18th tee. It looks like they’ve recently sodded around the back perimeter of the green, from the left middle all the way around to the right middle, turf which is a much darker green than the rest of the fairway (see photos), so I’m not sure what type of grass it is.

The entire hole is in a beautiful setting, especially the greensite, and it was particularly striking during our first round, when we arrived at the 17th tee in the early evening, about 6:30pm, 45 minutes or so before sunset (7:20pm in mid-May).
 
You have a great view of the hole if you look back as you negotiate the climb behind the green and up to the tees of the 18th. “Cliffhanger” is a tough par-3, coming late in the round and providing the golfer with one of the last challenges of the day.



The views from the Apache tee…




The view from the forward tee over Gilson Wash…


Walking up to the green…


From the left of the green…


Standing on the back fringe…


Heading up to the 18th tees, looking back (note the darker color sod)…






« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:27:04 AM by Jim Johnson »

Jim Johnson

A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos New
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2013, 11:41:49 AM »
January 2012 … Gene Greco wrote …                                                                                                                        
When I played Apache Stronghold ten or so years ago I had done so prior to visiting my daughter at University of Arizona and immediately after playing some of the more well regarded courses in Scottsdale, including Desert Forest, which at the time was the top rated course in AZ …  I have since had the opportunity to play most everything in Tucson as well.

Apache Stronghold, at the time I played it, remains the best golf course I have played in the State of Arizona.

The fairways were not as well conditioned as your average muni. But everything else was golf as I love it.
No housing. Startling vistas. Quiet. Enchanting.  The walk was an adventure, an expedition discovering golden nuggets of cool landforms and architectural features at every twist and turn. I remember enjoying all the holes with the par 3s being especially good. The greens were superb and in fantastic condition. The contouring was not overdone (!!!!!) and the grass used was the closest in feel to that of Sand Hills I have putted on either before or since.






Apache Stronghold’s closing hole, the par-4 18th named “Home”, heads southeast and plays downhill off a ridge into a valley fairway 50 feet below, with a central bunker in the landing zone, complicating matters and causing the golfer to make a decision regarding the best possible line of play. There’s a distinct “wow factor” to this teeshot.
 
The central bunker forces the player into the first decision off the tee. Taking it left of the bunker affords you the best line into the angled green, which is guarded on both sides by bunkers, and also protected in front with a bunker 20 yards short of the green (but which appears to lay just in front of the green).

Teeboxes were fine (surprisingly the back Stronghold tee was in the worst shape), the green was in great shape other than one sandy spot 2 or 3 feet long, and the fairway was in good shape except for one area near the central bunker, where there were numerous sandy patches in an area about 20 yards long.

On our Wednesday evening round, there was a pile of what appeared to be coarse sand in the central bunker. When we finished our round the next afternoon it had been spread out as a base within the bunker and there were four men in the shade of trees to the left of the green taking a break while we finished with our approach shots and putts. It was obvious, from what I’d seen the evening before, that they had started working on the bunkering surrounding the green as well.

This aerial photo from 2007 shows how far apart the teeboxes on #18 are spread out...



Stronghold view…


The Apache tee…


Coming home…



160 yards out…


The greensite for the 18th hole. Notice the slope on the green…


Looking back on 18…

« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:28:36 AM by Jim Johnson »

Jim Johnson

A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos New
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2013, 09:38:39 PM »
It’s obvious, judging from pictures posted in several past threads on Apache Stronghold here, and what we actually saw and experienced in May, that they’ve done a bunch of work to improve the conditions there, and I commend them for that. Dave Russell and his crew were working on the central bunker in the 18th fairway and the bunkering surrounding the 18th green during our visit there. I’m hoping that they will continue to tackle one hole at a time, as it looks like they have done similar work on some of the other holes. One notable improvement was the greenside bunker on hole 9, much better now than during Dan Moore’s visit in December 2009.




Things that still need work would probably include the greenside bunker on 2, the huge fairway bunker on 8, the greenside bunker(s) on 11, the front greenside bunker on the Redan #14, and the bunker complex on 15. It looks like they have finished bunker work on most, if not all, of the other holes.

The greens for the most part were in good shape. The exceptions were some patches on 4, a couple on 8 and 13, several on 14, some small spots on 16, and a couple of noticeable ones on 17. But looking at Dan Moore’s photo of the 17th green from December 2009 showed us how much things have improved there on the 17th green since then.




They do need to put seed bottles on the carts themselves. I think this would be a huge benefit to the conditions of some of the fairways. Teeboxes on the par-3 holes would also benefit from boxes of seed/sand mix, or perhaps something more rustic, like the metal divot mix cans as at Sand Hills. (image below from Matt Bosela’s awesome photo tour of Sand Hills in July 2010)



The sandy cart paths seem to fit right in at Apache Stronghold. I think that paved cart paths would look artificial and very out of place on the golf course.

The biggest issue that I think they face, as far as course conditions go, is the fairway grass. Two fairways in particular, the 6th and the 12th, have numerous areas with very little grass.

6th fairway...


12th fairway...


I don’t know if this is a soil issue or a water quality issue. I’m guessing soil, but I ain’t no turf guy. It’s disheartening to see this, especially after seeing other fairways which are in excellent condition.

Anyway, this little photo tour has been a labor of love – it’s solidified my admiration of the golf course and piqued my anticipation for a return to Apache Stronghold. I look forward to going back, and I encourage you to give it a shot too, particularly if you’ve been there before. I think that you'll find it interesting to compare conditions, then and now.

I wish Dave Russell the best of luck and hope that he continues to do some great stuff at Apache Stronghold. Hopefully, in time, the course will return to its glory days, and see a lot more golfers enjoying what it has to offer.



Cheers!
Jim

« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 05:15:09 PM by Jim Johnson »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2013, 06:43:40 AM »
Jim,

Many thanks for this interesting photo tour and your accompanying words. You've obviously put in a great deal of time and effort here so a big 'well done'. Such a shame to see an interesting, and natural course, decline in this manner. Hope it's able to recover.

BTW, with many of your photos having that single mountain peak in view, I was regularly reminded of the 'Close Encounters' film.

All the best

Jim Johnson

Re: A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2013, 10:04:29 PM »
The references by Tom Doak (“As to Jim Johnson's proposal…”, reply #3) and Scott Wood (“If you can get 299 others, I'm in...”, reply #13) relate to an “idea” which I mentioned in my opening comments, which were subsequently deleted after it became obvious that, other than Scott, no one seemed to care about – at least, judging from the comments, or lack thereof! It was a bit surprising, given this group’s propensity for solid quality golf course architecture and, as one person put it several years ago, that this forum seems to have a “cult following” for Apache Stronghold. In my research on the golf course, I found 21 pages of related threads on Golf Club Atlas using the “search” function – and with an average of 30 threads on each of those 21 pages, that’s 600+ comments re: Apache Stronghold.

I’ll throw this out there again, for those curious about what Tom and Scott were referring to … and I’m not expecting it to gain any traction here … but if you have an opinion on it, have at ‘er. It’s only an idea, which comes from my fear that the course may suffer financially long-term as a public course, because of its location, and ultimately close. The photo (in the previous post) of an empty clubhouse patio may offer a clue as to how busy they are.

As a destination course, more like Sand Hills, or Dismal River, or Ballyneal, and with members who truly appreciate the architecture of the course, the setting, staying at the Best Western onsite, and who probably would indulge in some casino action as well, I wonder if it wouldn’t do better, financially. It could be beneficial for the Apache Nation, with a guaranteed annual lease payment. And with a successful golf course could come much improvement as far as certain aspects of the course conditioning (i.e. fairway turf).

For those who are wondering what Tom and Scott were referring to, I’ll re-insert the comments in the next post (and in subsequent posts, as Golf Club Atlas seems to have a quantity limit re: # of characters per post)…

Jim Johnson

Re: A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2013, 10:06:41 PM »
There was a thread on this forum several years ago about creating a “golfclubatlas.com golf course”. The idea consisted of a group of GolfClubAtlas members, and other golf architecture aficionados, banding together to create something very, very special. I recall thinking that the only way that it could become a reality would be to purchase an existing course at a rock-bottom price, something which led me to consider that perhaps “Red Mike”, or “Links of North Dakota” as it is known, would be a good candidate, as I’d heard a rumour – which turned out to be false – that the owners there were interested in selling it at a bargain price. In hindsight, however, the location is simply too remote and difficult to get to for most people.
 
The idea has continued to intrigue me. After experiencing “Apache Stronghold” in Arizona, I wonder if there is a possibility there … if the Apache Nation would consider leasing the course to a group of gca fanatics. I doubt that purchasing the course from the Apache Nation is even possible, or legal. However, perhaps leasing it is. Could they could get interested in such an idea? An annual lease payment would give the Apache Nation guaranteed revenue every year. It could take the headaches of the golf course operations off their hands while still employing tribal members. It could, in theory, bring additional guests into their casino, and to their hotel. And a lease of the golf course, not a purchase, is what could make it all possible for the group of gca aficionados, financially.

The course has been built. It exists. It was rated very high in the state of Arizona and in the country, until course conditions – “fixable”, according to senior design associate Jim Urbina – took its toll. GolfWeek Magazine, in 2005, ranked Apache Stronghold as the #1 Public Course in the state of Arizona.
 
The bones of the course are solid”, as Scott DeBolt says (for a living, he consults on new golf construction projects and renovations all over the world). Scott believes that the course could be “whipped into good shape for a minimal investment ... from a grassing standpoint, I think fairly cheap ... the water quality issue will need some work...however, with the possible use of Paspalum (Seaspray), that might eliminate some of that cost… biggest cost will be re-doing the bunkers...pretty much all of them need to be re-shaped, etc… could turn it around for 75K as long as they hired a superintendent who could train (or re-train) the current crew and check out the irrigation system.

I have absolutely no idea what it would cost to get the course back into great shape. It does seem, from the pictures I’ve seen from previous years and what we personally experienced, that the course is on its way back towards greatness, and I’m sure Dave Russell is a big part of that. But, from what I saw on several fairways, notably 6, 12, and 13, it seems like there’s a ways to go, and there’s either a water quality issue there, or a soils issue, or perhaps both. Basically, it seems like it’s a tough place to grow grass. So, if there’s an answer there somewhere, there’s also the resulting cost. Perhaps, as Scott wonders, Paspalum might be part of that answer. It sounds like the spacing on the irrigation lines is/was an issue. So there’s a cost there as well. And some of the greens need some TLC. More cost.

If $500,000 would do the job (a total guess), that basically requires 250 members paying just a $2,000 initiation fee (or 200 members paying $2,500). Perhaps $500,000 is way too pessimistic an estimate to “repair” the golf course, perhaps it’s closer to $250,000, or even less. As Jim Urbina says, “the last time I was there it needed some work but nothing a little TLC wouldn't solve.”  $250,000 would equate to 250 members at only a $1,000 initiation fee. Regardless, whether its $1,000 or $2,000 or $2,500, it’s much less, I believe, than joining a club such as Sand Hills, Ballyneal, or Dismal River. And getting to Apache Stronghold is much easier than getting to Sand Hills, Ballyneal, or Dismal River, with its location close to Phoenix and its airport.

Continued…

Jim Johnson

Re: A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2013, 10:08:18 PM »
(continued)

There is a hotel on the property, a Best Western. Granted, it is not the cabins at Sand Hills, Ballyneal, or Dismal River, but it is an existing hotel, which does not have to be built. My wife and I stayed there and enjoyed a very nice room with a large (spotless) bathroom and a comfortable bed, including a view of the outdoor pool and the first fairway. I’ve read comments on review sites saying that the hotel has seen renovations in the past few years.

There is a clubhouse onsite, and no, it is not the clubhouse at Sand Hills, Ballyneal, or Dismal River, but it is an existing clubhouse, which does not have to be built. For those who would enjoy it, there’s a casino on the property also, something not at Sand Hills, or Ballyneal, or Dismal River.

Unlike Red Mike/Links of North Dakota, or for that matter Sand Hills, Ballyneal, or Dismal River, the course at Apache Stronghold is not “remote”. There is a 6,500 foot runway directly across the highway from the golf course, just 400 yards from the front door of the hotel. The Phoenix International Airport is only an hour and twenty minutes from the course.
Apache Stronghold is just over an hour from the edge of a major metropolitan area of 4.2 million+ people (Phoenix), and just over an hour and a half from another large metropolitan area of 1 million+ people (Tucson). If just one passionate golf architecture fanatic lives amongst 35,000 of these residents, these two metropolitan areas alone have 150 prospective members, not a bad base with which to build from.

Unlike Red Mike/Links of North Dakota, the playing season at Apache Stronghold is long, essentially 12 months a year, although some of that time, admittedly, is not exactly “run out the door and let’s go golfing” weather. As former superintendent Ron Mahaffey has stated, his favorite months to play are the fall months … “no wind, warm days and pleasant nights.” Perhaps, in analyzing the season, there are times that specific types of golfers would frequent the golf course. Apache Nation members, locals, and southwesterners would, in theory, play anytime throughout the year. GCA fans/tourists, who do not mind/actually enjoy dormant fairway conditions, would, in theory, play during the winter months, in addition to tourists who, when educated about the dormant fairways and the resulting firm & fast conditions, would grow to enjoy the experience (this is assuming dormant Bermuda fairways were kept in play over the winter months). GCA fans/tourists, like myself, who admittedly haven’t played much (if any) golf on dormant fairways, might instead prefer to visit during the warmer months of April-May and September-November. Regardless, the chances of inclement weather at Apache Stronghold are much, much, lower than at Red Mike, Sand Hills, Ballyneal, or Dismal River.

Continued…

Jim Johnson

Re: A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2013, 10:09:53 PM »
(continued)

If the Apache Nation doesn’t want any part of the idea, obviously this is all moot. But after experiencing this wonderful gem in a unique part of the desert, I can’t help but wonder if an idea like this, or some variant of it, might be an answer to their ongoing economic problem – a low number of golfers each day (each day that we golfed there, we saw 6-10 vehicles in the parking lot) paying a very low green fee (i.e. my wife and I each paid $30/round, including power cart). And, I would imagine that those in search of a $15 green fee (+ cart) are not the types of players about to drop several hundred dollars in the Apache Gold casino.
 
I mention the idea basically because I have very strong fears that the golf course will become “NLE” (no longer existing). Ran already feels that it is, given his listing of it in his “Courses by Country” listings. I believe, as Matthew Petersen has pointed out (see his reply #8, May 29th), that the golf course will always struggle, given a number of factors, the primary one being its location, and that in time it will close. I think that would be an utter shame and am just trying to “help the cause”.

Jay Flemma, in February 2007, stated “We must do what we can to preserve this golf course no matter what … the design here is one of Doak's strongest designs … there is a super collection of greens and hole shapes at Apache.  Everything should be done to preserve this treasure because Doak's work here was astoundingly good.

If we, as golf course architecture aficionados, have a strong interest in a superbly routed, masterfully designed, scenic, walkable, golf “mecca” (as Jonathan Cummings alludes to), perhaps Apache Stronghold is that place. The attraction would be a great golf course which would be private and not crowded, with a membership that includes Apache Nation members and golf course architecture fans from far and wide who appreciate the course’s outstanding design features, while allowing unaccompanied guests to augment club revenues and assist in keeping members’ dues to a minimum. The only way it could work is to keep the initiation fee low, and an annual lease of an existing golf course, versus buying an existing golf course, could allow that. With some Golf Club Atlas participation, it could become an unofficial “GCA golf club”.

If it’s a win-win for everyone involved, particularly the Apache Nation – for they are the ones who showed the initiative and took the steps to create the golf course in the first place – perhaps this is something that should be looked into. If you’re interested in kicking it around, chime in here and let everyone know your thoughts, or message me privately; lurkers are welcome to email me.

Stupid, crazy idea? Yeah, probably. I realize, as Tom Doak has stated, that the golf course was built as an attraction for the casino. If you’re going to golf, you could say “we might as well play in the casino after the round” versus if you’re playing in the casino (as a priority), you’re not likely to golf on the course. But if the golf course’s location is not conducive to steady business, what is it really doing for the casino? I think that their current situation, and what they’ve been through for years, is not healthy, financially. If not this idea, perhaps there’s another (better) idea out there that might just work, for everyone, most of all the Apache Nation. It is a magical place.

Would there be any interest in a future GCA event at Apache Stronghold? Perhaps a chance to kick around the idea – or another one – if not enjoy some fun golf on a great golf course in a beautiful setting with some nice warm weather? (we golfed May 15th and 16th with the temp in the mid-high 80’s). I would have suggested KP2014 at Apache Stronghold next May but that looks like it’s Washington state bound, with Rich Choi’s generous offer to host at Chambers Bay.

Andy Troeger

Re: A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2013, 10:30:31 AM »
Jim,
I like putting outside money into Apache Stronghold is a tough sell for a lot of reasons. Apache is certainly not the only course that's 1-2 hours from Phoenix that has had significant financial trouble. Seven Canyons in Sedona, The Rim in Payson, and apparently Hassayampa in Prescott have all struggled as well. Part of the challenge is that people come to Arizona mainly to play golf in January/February/March and the conditions at those courses tend to be better further into the season than that. Apache has the weather to be comfortable most of the winter certainly, but that seems to have been when the course conditions have been most difficult to maintain. While the conditioning of the course looks improved, I wouldn't drive the 5-6 hours from Albuquerque to see it again based on what I'm seeing in your photos--it still has a long way to go although I know very little about what it costs to achieve (and maintain) that change.

I also think the tribe is going to be reluctant to cede any control over the golf course to outsiders, no matter how good the intentions. I think they are very proud of their golf course, even if they have not managed to keep it up.

And lastly, what I remember of the area makes the course a tough sell, because the golf course conditioning isn't the only challenge to visiting. In order to visit for more than a day trip, you have to put up with very average amenities without many other options. I think Black Mesa has more in common with Apache than perhaps these other courses, especially considering that Black Mesa is closest to Espanola, NM, which is a very poor community that certainly is not a vacation travel destination. I wonder if most of the GCA'ers that played Black Mesa ever even made it into town. Where Black Mesa has a huge advantage is that it is a 20 minute drive from Santa Fe with its rich culture and history. There are plenty of quality lodging and food options, and a course that has architecture every bit as good as Apache Stronghold IMO. Even if AS were in better condition, I think people who like the casino/hotel environment have far better casino options to choose from that are easier to get to. Golfers as a group are often affluent enough that I think Apache almost needs to be able to have the Sand Hills area model where the operators have quality lodging and food, even if it makes for a relatively expensive getaway.

I certainly wish the Apache Nation and the course the best and hope they make it successful, but I think it requires more than just improving course conditioning, although that is a necessary ingredient. 

Bill_McBride

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Re: A visit to Apache Stronghold (Doak) May 15-16, 2013...with photos
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2013, 01:58:00 PM »
Andy, you are right on about Black Mesa.  My wife and I spent a week in Santa Fe with three other couples.  We played four times, twice at Black Mesa, once each at Pa-ko and Cochiti.  I wish we had played all four at Black Mesa.  We spent a day driving up to Chamayo and another fooling around Santa Fe.  With the foos, culture, music in Santa Fe it was a great week.

By contrast I played two rounds at Apache Stronghold with a night in the casino hotel.  Terrible food, low rent casino.   

Two great courses, two completely different experiences.   Sad but true.