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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« on: May 26, 2013, 11:05:28 AM »
The LPGA is a the Ocean Course in the Bahamas this week. The course has been unplayable since a rain event on Wed. They are completing an official 36 hole tournament by playing 12 playable holes Fri, Sat, and Sun. How could it be that since most architects here say drainage is the number one job, that a course not only won't drain over night, but won't drain in 4 to 5 days?

As a side note, the gals were catching tarpon in the flooded 18th fairway on Thu.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 08:50:54 PM by GJ Bailey »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom screw up at the Ocean Course
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2013, 11:27:44 AM »
Tom who?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom screw up at the Ocean Course
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2013, 11:34:35 AM »
Tom Weiskopf. I thought which Tom did The Ocean Course in the Bahamas where the LPGA is playing was fairly obvious.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom screw up at the Ocean Course
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2013, 11:41:29 AM »
Tom Weiskopf. I thought which Tom did The Ocean Course in the Bahamas where the LPGA is playing was fairly obvious.


Sorry, should have Googled to avoid snarky reply. 

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom screw up at the Ocean Course
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2013, 12:24:07 PM »
Probably not. ;)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom screw up at the Ocean Course
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2013, 12:29:24 PM »
Thought he meant Morris the elder...shows what I know~
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom screw up at the Ocean Course
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2013, 02:12:28 PM »
Not sure one should be all that critical given they received 12 inches in a very short period of time.

Certainly not ideal but 12 inches in a few hours is going to create a awful lot of issues that cannot fully addressed that quickly.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom screw up at the Ocean Course
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2013, 04:09:53 PM »
GB,

Have you ever encountered 12 inches of rain in such a short period of time? All the drainage and sand-capping in the world would make any course look like a bog.

Bob

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2013, 08:56:26 PM »
Bob,

I guess I am used to courses with slope that will take water off the course. If drainage is the architects number one job, shouldn't there be enough slope to have water flow away instead of just standing there? I guess being a native of the mountain west, I haven't seen courses that won't drain water way.

Dump 12 inches on the courses at Bandon, and I would have to think they would be golfing the next day, but then I've never studied how the courses drain, so I could be wrong.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2013, 09:08:04 PM »
GJ:

Come on man.  12 inches of rain is a boatload of water.  Not a fair complaint. 

Bart

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2013, 09:16:17 PM »
So shall we limit courses to land that will handle 12 inches over night and be playable the next day?

If so I sure would like to own the hadful that can handle that.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2013, 10:47:29 PM »
Coriolis Effect.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2013, 05:14:17 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wczpLRY1WjY

It can happen to the best of them.

(Was looking for the old b/w images of water running 2' deep onto the first tee.   More than one Open has been delayed through unplayable conditions.)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 05:54:16 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2013, 05:47:37 AM »
Garland,

You moron.

Not much slope on the site.

May leads into the rainy season in the Bahamas.
Sometimes Mother Nature shows up early.

12 inches in a short span of time, on flat land that's already irrigated daily.

And your question was ?

You can now move toward the head of the table at our next dinner ;D

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2013, 10:44:43 AM »
OK, I assume Patrick has seen the course when he reports not much slope on the site. Do architects attempt to make drainage pathways when there is not much slope on a site, so that holes don't turn into lakes that last for several days? Or, would that generally be considered too expensive than what is typically done for such a site?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2013, 11:32:34 AM »
Garland,

There is a difference between ponding on an everyday basis (bad drainage design) and temporary ponding after a 12" rain.  If it is always wet, then they didn't provide proper pitch (usually 2-3% minimum) and outlets in the low zones.  Pretty simple, water runs downhill....and it needs to be designed that way.

We design course drains for every day storms, maybe in the worst in a typical year, 2 years, or five years.  Highways and critical areas are designed for 25, 50 and 100 year events, which I gather a 12" rain is.  Its a value judgement given the low budgets of golf courses.  If draining for a 2 year storm costs $100K and draining for a 10 year storm costs $400K, in pipe and what not, is that $300K, or $30K per year debt, or $1 per round worth it?  Or, do you accept some days being out of play and save the money?

Most courses accept being out of play for a day every once in a while, maybe even 2-3 times per year over the higher construction cost, as a matter of economics.  Banks won't lend enough to drain for the worst storm, and there is no critical safety need for it.

I will say that not all gca's understand the actual amount of runoff that comes off a site, and should spend more time sizing pipes to accomodate flow.  If you put 4, 6, and 8" pipes everywhere because they usually work, one area might have to drain 2 acres and another 20, and if that bigger area is out of play, its possible the whole course is out of play, and that might be considered less than adequate drainage design.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2013, 05:21:36 PM »
I don't know if Patrick has seen the site but in an earlier time, I saw most of the Bahamas.  Very little elevation change, almost all near sea level.  Sand and coral based so that helps but a foot of rain has no place to go
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 05:05:59 PM by SL_Solow »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2013, 03:46:30 PM »
Thanks Jeff and Shel,

Those are the kinds of answers I was looking for.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2013, 05:59:04 PM »
I worked there as Dir of Golf prior to Tom W's redo of a superb Dick Wilson course (originally Arawak GC then Paradise Island GC).   The interior part of the golf course is below sea level, the lakes are brackish water, the surface is usually fresh water floating on top of the salt water.   After 4 inches of rain it takes some time to drain, usually a week of tide changes.   It used to really affect our Bermuda grasses which were replaced by paspallum when Tom redid the course.

Interesting note:  a few weeks after the new layout was grassed I got to walk it with Tom.  He was concerned that the grass was turning pink. I said it was dying because of the pure salt water being used, IMHO they should have used fresh water for grow-in while gradually introducing the saltier water (even fresh water in Nassau is salty).   A million dollars later (100% regressing) the course turned green in time for NBC golf tournament.   In 2000 a lot of people were not up-to-speed on paspallum grass (in fact I'm still not sure how to spell it).
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't the Ocean Course in the Bahamas drain?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2013, 05:50:31 AM »
I worked there as Dir of Golf prior to Tom W's redo of a superb Dick Wilson course (originally Arawak GC then Paradise Island GC).   The interior part of the golf course is below sea level, the lakes are brackish water, the surface is usually fresh water floating on top of the salt water.   After 4 inches of rain it takes some time to drain, usually a week of tide changes.   It used to really affect our Bermuda grasses which were replaced by paspallum when Tom redid the course.

Second guessing is always easy, but wouldn't a series of sumps been a drainage solution for the toughest to drain areas?

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