Bandon and Barnbougle - list your preference of courses

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks Adam,

You say the duneland at Barnbougle is significantly narrower and that the walk is more natural.

Does this mean that the dune ridges themselves are sharper and perhaps bigger? Does it also mean that there are more valley routed holes at Barnbougle?... Do the dune junkies prefer Barnbougle and the traditionalists prefer Pacific Dunes?

Complete guesswork of course - Just trying to discern the differences in site / course... Sometimes it is difficult to judge the true differentiators when it comes to Tom's courses that I haven't seen. Not because there aren't differences but because they are all well thought of...

EDIT - I see you meant the overall width of the dune system, not just the distances between dune ridges.... So the above questions may not apply

Ally:  It's both.  On the front nine at Barnbougle the dunes are bigger and the valleys quite narrow ... there is a big wet area between #1 and #8 / 9, but otherwise the entire width of the loop from oceanfront to flat inland is 200 yards or less, so there was no way to have any crosswise holes in that area of the course.  The back nine gives a little more latitude for that, but again wet areas make it difficult.

Pacific Dunes is also mostly routed through the valleys, the valleys there just run north-south instead of east-west.  But there are more of them and there is a bit more chance to mix up the sequencing of holes, as Adam described.

The crossovers Adam described at Pacific Dunes are really just an attempt to have the ocean on the right and the oceanfront hole playing downwind somewhere in the routing.  Nos. 10, 11 and 13 were all clearly better holes playing to the north, which made it harder to get in and out to a hole playing south.  At Barnbougle this wasn't a problem, there was much more ocean frontage to work with so the front nine uses it to the left and the back nine uses it on the right at the finish.

It's difficult for me to compare Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle because I have played one maybe 75 times and the other only a half dozen rounds in two trips.  I know Barnbougle is special and also great fun but I'm always curious to see how people compare the two.  I think for the people who like Barnbougle better, it usually comes down to the big dunes on the front nine and the wilder greens, vs. the cliff edges and the (somewhat) tamer greens at Pacific.

Thanks Tom...

[Sven Nilsen]

The site is a huge factor, even an average hole from a design perspective must be upgraded, IMO, if it is built on the Pacific Ocean.

Bill:

I see this completely different.  The site means little if the golf itself isn't interesting (or at least not as interesting).

Sven

Sven, I'm sure we do see this differently. I hear this all the time: if you took away the ocean and just consider the golf hole... Well I say you CAN'T forget about the ocean. Any hole that abuts an ocean is going to go way up in my ranking. And I think the architect has to be somewhat more conservative with what he builds next to an ocean to account for the wind.

Although I have not played Fishers Island, from photos I think this is the best example of this. No need to build fairway bunkers because the effect of the wind is so dramatic.

I love Bandon Traikls but I think there is a tendency to upgrade the course to make up for the fact that it is located on a somewhat lesser site.
 

I can follow the logical leaps you made, but I don't think it matches up with how I view the issue.

The first reaction of the Bandon virgin is to love BD, and to downgrade BT because it isn't on the water.  But on repeated trips people start to come around on BT (this happened to me and is the general rule of thumb from most folks I've talked to that have made multiple trips).
I don't think anyone upgrades BT because it isn't on the water.  I think they upgrade it because they realize they didn't give it much of a chance on their first play because it is the only course not on the water, and despite the lack of views they discover theirs a very interesting golf course out there in the hills.

Just one take on it,

Sven

[Bill Brightly]

OK, we are not that far off. I think Bandon Trails was the first Coore and Crenshaw course that I ever played, so I was pretty much blown away by it... I could play that course as my home course and be a very happy man. I DO need to go play all the Bandon courses gain. (Maybe this fall!)

[Kevin Pallier]

JB

Sorry I didn't get the chance to catch up with you when you were down under - I trust you had a great time ?

I would put them like this:

Pacific Dunes

Barnbougle Dunes, Old Macdonald, Bandon Trails

Lost Farm

Bandon Dunes

[Philip Gawith]

This reply will not satisfy the purists as it is rather GCA lite, reflecting my relative ignorance at the time i played these courses, plus a very fallible memory. When i went to Bandon the Trails and Old Mac courses did not exist and nor did Lost Farm exist when I played Barnbougle. And I played St Andrew's Beach and Cape Kidnappers - so a slightly different mix from various others. Those caveats entered, a few thoughts:

- i am pretty surprised at the powerful consensus that Bandon Dunes is such an inferior course. My instinct is that this is as much fashion as analysis, but no doubt i will go down in flames for saying that!
- I always feel Barnbougle is a bit over-blown in these discussions, as a course (world top 20 etc). I loved my visit, loved the course, felt there were a number of holes which really stuck in the memory, but i was not smitten to the extent some others seem to be.
- I thought St Andrew's Beach was a wonderful course which definitely bears favourable comparison with these other courses.
- even though Bandon is a visually stunning place, Cape Kidnappers clearly is without peer in this department. And very hard to beat as a singlular golf experience when you take account of just how unique it is.

Broadly I agree with those who talk about this discussion as having a splitting hairs element inasmuch as it is hard to think anyone will not have a fine time playing any of these courses - and we are surely talking about courses that all fall into the top 1 per cent of courses built.

Philip

[John Mayhugh]

My preferences are:

Old Macdonald
Barnbougle Dunes
Bandon Dunes or Lost Farm - I go back and forth between the two
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Trails

[Mark_F]

I always feel Barnbougle is a bit over-blown in these discussions, as a course (world top 20 etc). I loved my visit, loved the course, felt there were a number of holes which really stuck in the memory, but i was not smitten to the extent some others seem to be.
- I thought St Andrew's Beach was a wonderful course which definitely bears favourable comparison with these other courses.

You have always been a superb judge, Philip.