Bandon and Barnbougle - list your preference of courses

[jonathan_becker]

I'm not sure if this has been the subject of a thread or not, but out of curiosity, for those that have been to both, please list your preference of the six courses.  I won't count Preserve since it's not a full 18, plus, I haven't played it, but of the main six, what's your order?

I'll go....

Barnbougle Dunes
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Trails
Lost Farm
Bandon Dunes

Obviously, we're splitting hairs here among great places to play, but since they're set up similarly, I figured I would see what you all think.

Thanks

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

let you know about this time next year when I have finally undertaken the 'dream trip' down under.

[Daryl David]

Here is mine.  First three are very close, hair splitting.  Last three not as close.

Pac Dunes
Barnbougle
Old Mac
Bandon Dunes
Lost Farm
Bandon Trails

[Bill Brightly]

Barnbougle Dunes
Pac Dunes
Old Mac
Bandon Dunes
Lost Farm
Bandon Trails

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

There must be something that the photograhs of Lost Farms hide, because from the posted photos the place looks totally amazing.

[Andrew Hastie]

Pac Dunes
Old Mac
Barnbougle Dunes
Bandon Trails
Lost Farm
Bandon Dunes

Tough choose between Pac Dunes and Old Mac! I have played all the courses at least twice except Old Mac only once.

[Andrew Hastie]

I really loved the first 12 holes at Lost Farm, the last 6 or should I say 8 just loses me a bit. Barnbougle maybe doesn't quite have as impressive holes but certainly doesn't have a bad one either.

[David_Elvins]

Barnbougle

Pac Dunes

Lost Farm, Old Mac, Trails

Bandon Dunes

[Bart Bradley]

Barnbougle Dunes
Brandon Trails
Pac Dunes
Old Mac
Lost farm
Brandon Dunes

[Pete Lavallee]

Lost Farms was growing in when I visited Tassie, so I didn't get a chance to play that one:

Barnbougle Dunes
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Trails
Old Mac
Bandon Dunes

[Sven Nilsen]

Barnbougle

Pac Dunes

Lost Farm, Old Mac, Trails

Bandon Dunes

I agree (I think).

[David_Elvins]

I agree (I think).

Will you agree when I change my mind tomorrow?

I knew I had done this exercise before - just founded it in the search.  Last time I had Old Mac slightly below Trails and Last Farm. 

[Sven Nilsen]

I agree (I think).

Will you agree when I change my mind tomorrow?

I knew I had done this exercise before - just founded it in the search.  Last time I had Old Mac slightly below Trails and Last Farm. 

Ask me again in a week and I'll probably have a different answer.  Flavor of the day and all.

[Scott Warren]

Interesting to read. The above seems to tally with what Mayhugh and DK had to say after visiting Bridport for the inaugural Boomerang. I haven't been to Bandon, so am always interested to hear comparisons with Barny Dunes and Lost Farm.

So far the averaghe ranking order (awarding 1 for first through to 6 for last) is:

Barny Dunes - (1.4) - High 1/Low 3
Pacific Dunes (2) - 1/3
Old Macdonald (3.1) - 2/4
Bandon Trails (4.1) - 2/6
Barny Lost Farm (4. - 4/5
Bandon Dunes (5.2) - 4/6

[Anthony Fowler]

I'm surprised that Lost Farm is not faring well on others' lists.  I would rank them in the following order:

Pacific Dunes
Lost Farm
Bandon Trails
Barnbougle Dunes
Old Macdonald
Bandon Dunes

I'm splitting hairs with the top 4 and I could make a case for any of them being the best.  After that, I see a big gap between them and Old Macdonald (which is a lot of fun but not in the same category) and then another big gap between Old Macdonald and Bandon Dunes. 

[Ash Towe]

Barnbougle
Old MacDonald
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Trails

Lost Farm
Bandon Dunes

The last two cannot differentiate, both have some really good holes and others not at the same level.

Without wanting to thread jack, where would people place Cape Kidnappers and St Andrews Beach on this list if they have played them all?

[Bill Brightly]

I'm surprised that Lost Farm is not faring well on others' lists.  I would rank them in the following order:

Pacific Dunes
Lost Farm
Bandon Trails
Barnbougle Dunes
Old Macdonald
Bandon Dunes

I'm splitting hairs with the top 4 and I could make a case for any of them being the best.  After that, I see a big gap between them and Old Macdonald (which is a lot of fun but not in the same category) and then another big gap between Old Macdonald and Bandon Dunes. 

This whole exercise is splitting hairs, I would jump at the chance to play any one of these courses. Pac Dunes, Bandon Dunes and Barny Dunes clearly have the best sites. I think there is a natural tendency for some to upgrade a course like Bandon Trails because the architect built such an interesting course on a less than perfect site. Or put differently, downgrade a course on a great site because the site is so good. I think that is wrong. The site is a huge factor, even an average hole from a design perspective must be upgraded, IMO, if it is built on the Pacific Ocean.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I have been to neither but from the posts so far, it appears Barnbougle Dunes and Pacific Dunes are playing out for first place...

Considering they are by the same designer, what is their difference in:

Topography
Green contouring
Routing
Variety
etc...

Or are they two peas in the same pod?

[Adam Lawrence]

The duneland at Barnbougle - at least at the BD part of the property - is significantly narrower than at Bandon. This means that the course is routed in a rather different fashion, with a central clubhouse and each nine being broadly speaking out and back on either side of the clubhouse (there are a couple of holes, the sixth and the twelfth, that don't quite fit this). PD by contrast has a much more complex routing,  and turns back on itself more frequently, in order to get to and away from the coastline on multiple occasions. One consequence of this is that I felt BD was a more natural and better walk - the two areas around the third and twelfth greens and 4th/13th tees, and also around the 4th and 11th greens plus the fifth and twelfth tees at PD gave me the impression of walking in a different direction up the same path a little. It's totally justifiable - those are some of the best holes on the golf course. You could argue, and I wouldn't disagree, that the more complicated routing of PD is a strength, in that the greater number of turns gives more variety of wind direction. But I liked the feeling of BD, which has the air of an exploratory walk through the property, more.

[Ally Mcintosh]

The duneland at Barnbougle - at least at the BD part of the property - is significantly narrower than at Bandon. This means that the course is routed in a rather different fashion, with a central clubhouse and each nine being broadly speaking out and back on either side of the clubhouse (there are a couple of holes, the sixth and the twelfth, that don't quite fit this). PD by contrast has a much more complex routing,  and turns back on itself more frequently, in order to get to and away from the coastline on multiple occasions. One consequence of this is that I felt BD was a more natural and better walk - the two areas around the third and twelfth greens and 4th/13th tees, and also around the 4th and 11th greens plus the fifth and twelfth tees at PD gave me the impression of walking in a different direction up the same path a little. It's totally justifiable - those are some of the best holes on the golf course. You could argue, and I wouldn't disagree, that the more complicated routing of PD is a strength, in that the greater number of turns gives more variety of wind direction. But I liked the feeling of BD, which has the air of an exploratory walk through the property, more.

Thanks Adam,

You say the duneland at Barnbougle is significantly narrower and that the walk is more natural.

Does this mean that the dune ridges themselves are sharper and perhaps bigger? Does it also mean that there are more valley routed holes at Barnbougle?... Do the dune junkies prefer Barnbougle and the traditionalists prefer Pacific Dunes?

Complete guesswork of course - Just trying to discern the differences in site / course... Sometimes it is difficult to judge the true differentiators when it comes to Tom's courses that I haven't seen. Not because there aren't differences but because they are all well thought of...

EDIT - I see you meant the overall width of the dune system, not just the distances between dune ridges.... So the above questions may not apply

[Sven Nilsen]

The site is a huge factor, even an average hole from a design perspective must be upgraded, IMO, if it is built on the Pacific Ocean.

Bill:

I see this completely different.  The site means little if the golf itself isn't interesting (or at least not as interesting).

Sven

[Tom_Doak]

Thanks Adam,

You say the duneland at Barnbougle is significantly narrower and that the walk is more natural.

Does this mean that the dune ridges themselves are sharper and perhaps bigger? Does it also mean that there are more valley routed holes at Barnbougle?... Do the dune junkies prefer Barnbougle and the traditionalists prefer Pacific Dunes?

Complete guesswork of course - Just trying to discern the differences in site / course... Sometimes it is difficult to judge the true differentiators when it comes to Tom's courses that I haven't seen. Not because there aren't differences but because they are all well thought of...

EDIT - I see you meant the overall width of the dune system, not just the distances between dune ridges.... So the above questions may not apply

Ally:  It's both.  On the front nine at Barnbougle the dunes are bigger and the valleys quite narrow ... there is a big wet area between #1 and #8 / 9, but otherwise the entire width of the loop from oceanfront to flat inland is 200 yards or less, so there was no way to have any crosswise holes in that area of the course.  The back nine gives a little more latitude for that, but again wet areas make it difficult.

Pacific Dunes is also mostly routed through the valleys, the valleys there just run north-south instead of east-west.  But there are more of them and there is a bit more chance to mix up the sequencing of holes, as Adam described.

The crossovers Adam described at Pacific Dunes are really just an attempt to have the ocean on the right and the oceanfront hole playing downwind somewhere in the routing.  Nos. 10, 11 and 13 were all clearly better holes playing to the north, which made it harder to get in and out to a hole playing south.  At Barnbougle this wasn't a problem, there was much more ocean frontage to work with so the front nine uses it to the left and the back nine uses it on the right at the finish.

It's difficult for me to compare Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle because I have played one maybe 75 times and the other only a half dozen rounds in two trips.  I know Barnbougle is special and also great fun but I'm always curious to see how people compare the two.  I think for the people who like Barnbougle better, it usually comes down to the big dunes on the front nine and the wilder greens, vs. the cliff edges and the (somewhat) tamer greens at Pacific.

[Brett_Morrissy]

My favourite in order with rounds from 20: (I would have played at least 10 x as many Rds in Tassie to the others combined - so a clear bias)

1. Barnbougle -5
2. Bandon Trails -4
3. Old Mac - 4
4. Lost Farm -4
5. Pac Dunes - 2
6. Bandon Dunes -1

PD is treated harshly in the splits above, but I couldn't give Bandon a donut.

Of the other TD courses, Kidnappers, StAB and Ballyneal -  I'd put BN in between BT/OM; StAB & CK between PD/BD

Give me another 10 Rds when adding these three other courses  I would give 4 to BN, 3 to PD, 3 to StAB,  2 to CK.

[Bill Brightly]

The site is a huge factor, even an average hole from a design perspective must be upgraded, IMO, if it is built on the Pacific Ocean.

Bill:

I see this completely different.  The site means little if the golf itself isn't interesting (or at least not as interesting).

Sven

Sven, I'm sure we do see this differently. I hear this all the time: if you took away the ocean and just consider the golf hole... Well I say you CAN'T forget about the ocean. Any hole that abuts an ocean is going to go way up in my ranking. And I think the architect has to be somewhat more conservative with what he builds next to an ocean to account for the wind.

Although I have not played Fishers Island, from photos I think this is the best example of this. No need to build fairway bunkers because the effect of the wind is so dramatic.

I love Bandon Traikls but I think there is a tendency to upgrade the course to make up for the fact that it is located on a somewhat lesser site.
 

[jonathan_becker]

Tom Doak,

I thoroughly enjoyed the Dunes setting at BD and the two loops in the routing.  In addition to that, based on my experience at BD, the restraint you and your team showed in the greenside bunkering allowed for a lot of creativity on approaches and with the recovery shots.  Not to say that your other courses are overbunkered and BD is underbunkered, but my mind wasn't occupied so much on the "miss" as I knew I would likely have a decent chance to get it up and down in a lot of instances. I played all sorts of shots during my 27 holes.  Furthermore, the turf speed at BD was absolutely perfect in relation to some of the wild contours and that made for a LOT of fun and I didn't have to worry about the ball racing off.  I could get aggressive and everything played out beautifully.