[DMoriarty]

Sorry about that Terry.  I'd like to avoid pissing matches as well, but I have found from past experience that the best way to avoid them is to painstakingly spell everything out in every tedious detail.

The quick and dirty version is that Hugh Wilson's trip abroad had very little impact on the original version of Merion East. Like NGLA, much of the original Merion East course was reportedly based on famous holes abroad, and included many CBM 'tells' such as a "Redan," an "Alps," a "Road Hole," an "Eden" green, and a double plateau green.  Charles Blair Macdonald and H.J. Whigham are the likely parties responsible for this, given that they been directly involved in the development and design of Merion East from before the land was purchased through their approval of the final layout plan, and had been over the land at least twice, had spent at least two additional days working on the plan with Wilson, and had chosen and approved the final routing plan.  

[Ed Brzezowski]

Where was the original 13th green in relation to where it is now located?  I hate to open a can of worms but was just wondering.
thanks

[DMoriarty]

Here is clip of an oblique aerial photo of the green location from the Hagley digital archives from 1925. Ardmore Ave. runs diagonally through the lower lefthand corner and the "new" 13th green (with all the bunkers) is visible near the center.  The original 12th green is visible directly below the 13th green.  The old 13th green is near the right edge of the photo, below the parking lot.  The bunker(s) left of the green have been filled in, but the creek is partially visible.   The tee was up against the RR, to the right of the old 12th green, so the hole played at a slight angle.



(Probably just my imagination, but if I squint I can almost make out an horseshoe across the front center of the green. )

[John Burnes]

DMoriarty-

Great photo.

Is the 1st tee down near the 13th green in this photo, or is it at (or near) its current location?

Also, when did (what appears to be in this photo) the main drive get removed from behind 18 green and re done parallel to 13?

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

If you want to stop pissing, then stop picking on every word I write just to piss.  Thanks.

There is, BTW, plenty of evidence that Merion intended to open with "rough drafts" of the holes and improve them later.  And thus, whatever Wilson learned on his trip presumably got put into use in the many iterations that finally became the Merion we knew.  All I was saying.

However, great photo posted just above.  I recall many discussions about the original tenth green, which we can see parts of.  Also of interest is the lavish tree planting behind the new 13th, when other holes nearby remain more or less treeless.  We can only wonder why those choices were made.

[DMoriarty]

John Burnes,

The first tee is behind the "new" 13th green (to the right of the green in the photo.)  Notice also that this was before first hole had been flip-flopped from a right-to-left hole to a left-to-right hole.  You can see that the old fairway actually extended all the way Golf House Rd. (The pros will likely be teeing off on the 14th from what was the first fairway.)   I don't remember exactly offhand, but I believe the entry road was changed in or around 1929.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

Given that I am trying to avoid too much attenuated speculation, I hesitate to get too much into a discussion about other potential CBM 'tells' at Merion East. That said, I will briefly discuss the 13th Hole since your explanation to Charlie doesn't quite tell the whole story.  

George speculated that the current 13th was bunkered like a short hole "though the green is small," and while you correctly pointed out that the 13th hole was not an original hole, you don't mention is that the original 13th hole was also a short par three of around 130 yards.  From what I can gather, the original featured a much larger, undulating green and was described at the time as completely surrounded by trouble.  

David:

Well, I'd never seen a photo of the original 13th hole before, nor paid much attention to what it was; I was only pointing out to Charlie that the hole HE was referring to was not built in 1912.  The major change made to the routing in the 1920's was a fascinating bit of work ... they sure accomplished a lot by adding the little bit of ground where #11 green and #12 tee now reside.  [I got my info about that from one of Merion's club history books that had great before-and-after maps of the routing ... I thought they gave Flynn a lot of credit in that edition of their history, but it's been years since I actually went back and read it.  Was the club entry not changed until a few years after that re-routing?]

I guess that the original 13th could have had a Macdonald influence, but it's not like he had a monopoly on short par-3 holes surrounded by trouble.  Lots of older courses had a hole of similar nature, though not so many with a stream in play.

[DMoriarty]

Tom,

Regarding the 13th, I agree with all that but just wanted to clarify that the original hole could have somewhat fit the description of a short as well.  And I of course agree that that CBM didn't have a monopoly on such a hole.  But I think we have to look at these things in context.

Were it just the 13th and nothing else it'd admittedly be an absurd connection to make, but can you think of any other courses around then that not only featured a "short par-3 holes surrounded by trouble," but also reportedly featured a Redan, an Alps, a Road Hole, and a double plateau green? The only courses I can think of are NGLA, Sleepy Hollow, and Piping Rock, and Merion East. And we know that CBM had significant involvement in the creation of each.

As for the changes of Nos. 10-13 in the early 1920's, I keep thinking of the moving Remembrance written by Piper and/or Oakley in the Green Section Bulletin written shortly after Wilson's untimely death.  As I am sure you know, Piper and Oakley were extremely involved with both Wilson and Flynn and their work at Merion and elsewhere.

Notably, the Remembrance does not credit Wilson with the initial creation of Merion East nor does it even mention that Wilson had been involved in the initial design.  But the remembrance does praise Wilson for the changes to which you refer: "The mature results of his studies in golf architecture are embodied in the East Course at Merion, which was remodeled under his direction in 1923-1924." Given that Piper and Oakley were in a position to know, and absent evidence otherwise, I take their word for it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Perhaps also of note is that the original 13th is on the 3 acre parcel that CBM told them to go get way back in June 1910 on their first visit there.  Perhaps he/they envisioned that hole as a short par 3 back then.......Not sure, all fascinating speculation. 

As TD says, we can't be sure of all the discussions, inspirations, changes of mind, etc that went on in that period.  Even the participants might not remember all the decisions made years later.

And, not at all trying to be snarky,  but in truth and for those not familiar with the old threads, basically much of the arguments over Merion and its creation came down to whose vague statements were to be believed the most.  Piper and Oakley and/or Whighams separate eulogy/remembrances?  Recollections of the construction committee (like Francis for the 1950 US Open program?)  Newspapers accounts?  And those are just examples. There were more.....many more, to consider.

I think TD has this one right - we really can never know exactly what went on back then.  It was fun watching you and TMac and others trying to figure it out in more detail than the club had ever considered doing up until that point.  It was a contribution to their history.  I can understand your frustration with the Golf Digest article, given the personal time investment you made in this subject.

[DMoriarty]

Jeff Brauer

There are is quite a lot I have intentionally left out in my posts, including CBM's recommendation that the club acquire the parcel of land behind the clubhouse (where the 13th was located) and also CBM's list of hole lengths which turned out to be a good match for what what done. I have also left out other indications that the routing process had begun and that the basic routing was in place before Wilson was even involved in the project.  In other words, I am not trying to revive every issue from every previous discussion, but was rather trying to address a few issues raised in previous posts, and was trying to focus on what we can know without much speculation or filling in the blanks.

For example, the timing of Wilson's trip is fact, not a vague statement.  And it is a fact that the course had been designed and built before Wilson traveled abroad.   And it is a fact that this initial course was reported to have been based on the great holes abroad before Wilson had even returned from his trip.

[Sean_A]

The one issue I have with the templates being used as evidence in favour of CBM is a hole like the 3rd being called a Redan.  Its hard to believe CBM would call it as such. 






Notice how in the original there is an opportunity to bounce a ball in off the slopes.  That basic Redan shot does not exist at Merion.  The 3rd is essentially a shelf green - nothing like a Redan in any sense of the concept.

So I wonder about the other templates and how closely they followed the originals because CBM would have known the story.   

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

The one issue I have with the templates being used as evidence in favour of CBM is a hole like the 3rd being called a Redan.  Its hard to believe CBM would call it as such. 

That basic Redan shot does not exist at Merion.  The 3rd is essentially a shelf green - nothing like a Redan in any sense of the concept.

So I wonder about the other templates and how closely they followed the originals because CBM would have known the story.   

Ciao

Sean is right. While the deep bunker on the right has a similarity to many Redan holes, and the green does angle a bit, this is not a Redan hole.  If Wilson was really following Macdonald's instructions, there would be far less bunkering on the left and a kickmound would exist. Nae kickmound, nae Redan... Have the bunkers on the left always been there?

I'm a huge Macdonald fan and I love Redans. When I played the hole last year, it never crossed my mind that this was a Redan hole.

[JESII]

When these challenges came up a few years ago, it became evident that template terminology was used much more liberally than we on this site would do. #3 at both Merion and Pine Valley were considered Redan styles!

David has a strong case that there are several attempts at template holes at Merion. Where I think his argument for additional credit to CBM fails is initially in the completed routing and then in just what the course looked like on opening day...admittedly quite far from complete in design and preparation.

[DMoriarty]

Bill and Sean,

I understand why you and others don't think Merion's Redan matches the original hole or even our modern understanding of the Redan concept.  But my goal is to figure out how the hole was viewed 100 years ago, not today. 

While it may be hard for Sean to believe that CB Macdonald would have called the hole a Redan, CBM and HJ Whigham did indeed call it a Redan in his 1914 Golf Illustrated article, Redan Hole at the National Golf Links:  "There are several Redans to be found nowadays on American courses. There is a simplified Redan at Piping Rock, a reversed Redan at Merion Cricket Club (the green being approached from the left hand end of the tableland) and another reversed Redan at Sleepy Hollow where the tee instead of being about level with the green is much higher."

Who is in a better position to speak to whether the hole as it existed 100 years ago was a Redan?  You or C.B. Macdonald?  

And CBM  and Whigham were far from the only ones.  Off the top of my head, Travis, AWT, and Findlay described the hole as a Redan as did Robert Lesley of Merion, and as did many other golf writers who covered the opening and/or described the course for the 1916 Amateur.

This isn't about our opinions, it is about the history of the golf course.  And when it comes to whether this hole was meant to be a Redan and considered a Redan at the time, our views count very little as compared to the views of those who were actually there.
___________________________________________________________________________


As an aside, Here is an excerpt from the Brooklyn Eagle written prior to the 1916 Amateur.  The excerpt discusses how Merion's Redan (which was the 7th hole for the tournament) used to play before it was surrounded with lush rough:

"Redan Seventh an Illustration.
The seventh hole, for instance, is a one-shot Redan type of hole. . . .  At present the grass is of the short order, so that if a ball just clears the traps, it may run up to the green.  It is the intention of Greenkeeper Flynn to let this grass become real rough, so that a ball after clearing the traps, if not properly hit, will be checked in its effort to sneak up to the green."

It doesn't sound like William Flynn was a big fan of the ground game, at least on this hole.

[JESII]

David,

Is that excerpt possibly referring to the current fifth hole?

[DMoriarty]

Jim,   No.  The current 3rd played as the 7th for the 1916 Amateur.  Plus the description in the actual article leaves no doubt that the "one-shot Redan type of hole" is the current third.  The article also describes the large trap under the green on the right and even mentions sharp upslope to the green.

I know it seems impossible to imagine running the ball in there given the upslope, modern equipment, think rough, and a right-hander's high fade, but as a left-hander I can imagine how (with different conditions and old equipment) it might have been possible to get some semblance of a ground game kick from just short left of the green. (I played the hole with hickory iron and miraculously managed to get the ball to the front left corner and my ball actually fed right and back.)

But like the opinions of Sean and Bill, my opinion is really beside the point.  Contemporaneous accounts by experts and others indicate the hole was intended to be and was considered a Redan hole.  

[JESII]

I'm guessing then that the mowing lines were different than today because the green goes pretty much right to the bunker.

[Dan Herrmann]

For what it's worth, I think Merion East, as it exists today is a Wilson-Flynn design.  Without Flynn, it would be nothing like it is today.

[JESII]

Dan,

You could say that about several people.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,
I think the green was always perched right above the big bunker.  My assumption was that the article was referring the trap short and left, but I can't say for sure, nor can I remember for sure the history of that bunker.

[DMoriarty]

Actually I looked at the article again and also at a few of the old renderings, and looks like that short left bunker may not yet have existed.  (This would actually make it easier to run a ball in from the left.)

The article I quoted does mention that the fronting bunker actually connected with the ditch running diagonally between tee and green, so perhaps the article is referring to getting past the ditch or  portion of the bunker that perhaps extended far enough to connect to the ditch.  Here is the more complete quote.  See if it makes sense to you.

"Redan Seventh an Illustration.
The seventh hole, for instance, is a one-shot Redan type of hole. Here the play is over a ditch running in from the left to connect with a big trap under the green at the right.  These two hazards meet in a ravine.  From there up to the green Is a sharp slope.  At present the grass is of the short order, so that if a ball just clears the traps, it may run up to the green.  It is the intention of Greenkeeper Flynn to let this grass become real rough, so that a ball after clearing the traps, if not properly hit, will be checked in its effort to sneak up to the green."

The article refers to "traps" plural.   Perhaps he is referring to the bunker and the ditch as traps?

[JESII]

Could be...any chance the tee was 10 or 15 yards down the hill towards today's 5th green?

[Sean_A]

Jim,   No.  The current 3rd played as the 7th for the 1916 Amateur.  Plus the description in the actual article leaves no doubt that the "one-shot Redan type of hole" is the current third.  The article also describes the large trap under the green on the right and even mentions sharp upslope to the green.

I know it seems impossible to imagine running the ball in there given the upslope, modern equipment, think rough, and a right-hander's high fade, but as a left-hander I can imagine how (with different conditions and old equipment) it might have been possible to get some semblance of a ground game kick from just short left of the green. (I played the hole with hickory iron and miraculously managed to get the ball to the front left corner and my ball actually fed right and back.)

But like the opinions of Sean and Bill, my opinion is really beside the point.  Contemporaneous accounts by experts and others indicate the hole was intended to be and was considered a Redan hole.  

CBM knowing what a real Redan looks like makes me wonder if he could possibly have been involved in the creation of Merion's 3rd as a Redan and if he ever saw the finished product.  Does Merion's Redan bear any resemblance to the Redans we know he was involved with?  

Contemporaneous accounts may or may not be accurate.  Just as today, many people copy what they read without necessarily knowing the facts.  I certainly am not going fishing, but I have my doubts about CBM's involvement as a designer of individual holes if template holes are going to be a major thrust of evidence in support of the claim that CBM is the main archie of Merion.  Photos of the templates I have seen don't jive very well with what we know CBM did build at other courses.  It also seems strange to me that if templates were the main guide in the design of Merion, why did CBM approve of a site that didn't accommodate these holes in an obvious manner?  In other words, why did Merion look so different from other CBM courses?  I know, many questions, but thats how I see this issue.  

Ciao


  

[DMoriarty]

Jim,  I've seen early drawings which put the tee much closer to the fifth green, and early on (and during the 1916 Amateur) the par three was the next hole after the present 5th (which was then the 6th.)   But those early drawings are pretty rough, so I couldn't say for certain whether there used to be a tee even closer to the 5th green than the two still existing small tees.
_______________________________________________

Sean,  I think CBM just viewed these things much less stringently than you do.  He not only called Merion's hole a reversed Redan, he also wrote that the Redan "principle can be used with an infinite number of variations on any course."   That doesn't jibe with your strict understanding.

If you think about it, from a purists perspective the very concept of a reversed Redan is somewhat absurd anyway because reversed Redans don't play anything like Redans for the vast majority of golfers.  But CBM was willing design and build them and all sorts of twists, like the reversed Redan at Sleepy Hollow where the green was well below the tee.  I am not sure if many of CBM's Redans would qualify as Redans by your standards.

As for why Merion looked so different than other CBM course, I have never seen any indication that CBM/HJ Whigham/ or Raynor were directly involved in the actual construction at Merion East.  So far as I can tell, Wilson was the one responsible for constructing the course.  CBM's contribution was in the planning, but Wilson is primarily responsible for how that plan was carried out.   This is why I don't think I have ever argued that CBM was the "main archie" for the creation of the course.  I have said he was most likely the person most responsible for the plan, but that it was Hugh Wilson and friends who actually built the course.  No doubt it would have turned out differently if CBM and/or Raynor had been in charge of the construction.   That said, some of the earliest photos of NGLA don't look like what many think of as CBM's work either.  

As for the "main thrust of evidence" of CBM's involvement, it comes from Merion's own records and the recollections of those involved. Among other things, he inspected the property, helped choose the land, worked with Wilson to create the layout plan, again went over the land, and even chose and approved the final layout plan!  What more evidence could you possibly need that he was significantly involved in the planning?

As for whether CBM ever saw the hole, I can't prove one way or another, but he seemed to think it was a Redan Hole and he listed it right there with his other Redan holes in his article on the Redan.     Regardless, many other experts including those who had seen the original said the same thing.  The hole was widely known as a Redan.

Isn't it possible they just viewed things differently then, than you do now?  

[Bill Brightly]

David,

Did Wilson ever refer to the hole as a Redan? Did he ever acknowledge CBM's help in designing the hole?

The greensite looks fairly natural and cutting a right-side bunker into the hill is nothing too unusual, right? Could it be that CBM viewed the completed hole (in person or by looking at topos) and declared the hole a Redan?

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