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DMoriarty

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Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #225 on: June 25, 2013, 12:15:14 AM »
Perhaps the lead dog (in this case Wilson) gets more credit than he deserves, but that goes with the territory when you are selected to lead a project."

Rather than focusing on who should get more or less credit, I've always been more focused on trying to understand what happened.  But if one is going to consider credit, why not focus on Merion's Minutes and other contemporaneous records?  The following is far from a complete picture of what one can reasonably infer from the record, but at the very least we all ought to be able to agree these points:

1.  Merion purchased the site based "largely" on Macdonald's and Whigham's views "as to what could be done with the property."
2.  Macdonald and Whigham worked on figuring out the layout along with Merion's Golf Committee, and their "advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of the East Course were of the greatest help and value."
3.  Merion's Golf Committee brought Macdonald and Whigham back to Merion so that they could reinspect the land and determine the final layout plan from a number of options laid out before them by said Committee. The plan they came up with was then submitted to the Merion's Board as the one which had been "approved" by Macdonald and Whigham.
4.  Merion put Hugh Wilson in charge of laying the course out on the ground according to the plan Macdonald and Whigham had "approved."


It is easy for me to understand why you think that Wilson was "selected to lead the project" from this point on, but it is very difficult for me to understand why any would consider him the "lead dog" during the planning, and before CBM/HJW approved the final layout plan. Merion's Minutes from during this time period leave no doubt as to whose opinions mattered most to them. Macdonald's and Whigham's. And Alex Findlay gives us a pretty good idea of who Hugh Wilson thought was responsible for Merion's layout.  After spending an hour discussing the course with Wilson, Findlay wrote that Macdonald was responsible for the layout of many or all of the golf holes.  
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 06:59:47 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

SL_Solow

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Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #226 on: June 26, 2013, 02:18:06 PM »

Tom Paul asked me to post this in response to Dave's most recent post.  This is becoming a part time job.  The opinions belong to Tom.

. I would agree with that point and so would Merion and its historians because that is something that is fairly accurately referred to in the 1910 Site or Search Committee's report to the MCC Board on July, 1, 1910, although there is absolutely no mention or reference to a golf course plan, preliminary or otherwise, in the committee's report or in the Board's July 1, 1910 meeting minutes that refers to the committee's report. Specific Information on Macdonald/Whigam's June 1910 visit is hugely enhanced by the actual letter of Macdonald to Lloyd in June 1910, which was not available when David Moriarty wrote his 2008 IMO essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion...." It was found some months later in the archives of MCC by Merion GC's historians. In the July 1, 1910 Site Committee report and the July 1, 1910 Board meeting minutes it was specifically mentioned that the actual letter would not be for publication. In the MCC Board meeting minutes of Nov, 1910, at which time an agreement for 117 acres for $85,000 was reached between MCC and HDC, there is also no mention of a golf course plan, preliminary or otherwise. There would be no mention of anything to do with a golf course plan until the Board reported to their membership in early Jan. 1911 that a committee of experts were at work on the new golf grounds. Supplemented by later statements of Hugh Wilson and Richard Francis identifying this specific time as the point their committee was formed, historians can know this was what some of us today and others from that time have called the Wilson Committee. With all the foregoing, to assume or conclude that merely because these men were not mentioned by their actual names and, futher that they were so-called "novices," that they therefore could not have been the ones doing this work, is frankly a somewhat nonsensical logical assumption or conclusion.
 
 
 
2. Macdonald/Whigam did not work on figuring anything out with Merion's Golf Committee. In June, 1910 their visit was with a "Special" or ad hoc committee known as the Search or Site Committee on New Golf Grounds. That committee's work was completed in Nov, 1910 with a purchase agreement between MCC and HDC, and the board meeting minutes of that time specifically mentioned that committee with Robert Lesley as its chairman, was to be succeeded by what the board referred to as "The Committee on New Golf Grounds." This committee was also a "Special" or ad hoc committee (a non-Standing or non-permanent committee) and its initial chairman beginning in Nov. 1910 was Horatio Gates Lloyd. It also may very well have been the committee that Hugh Wilson chaired beginning in early Jan, 1911 with Lloyd, Griscom, Francis and Toulmin also on it. That "Special" or ad hoc committee would be referred to in MCC Board meeting minutes for the next few years at least. In early 1913 Wilson gave that committee's report to the board (but this certainly does not necessarily mean that particular time was when he became that committee's chairman). Wilson would not be a board member until July 1912 when he filled the vacancy of J.B. Thayer who died on the Titanic in April 1912. In a May or June 1911 Board meeting, the minutes record that Lloyd gave a verbal report for the Committee on New Golf Grounds on the latest work on the new East Course. He would've obviously done that being a board member and a member of that "Special" committee since Wilson was not yet on the board and not being a chairman of one of the MCC "Standing" committees would not ordinarily attend board meetings unless specifically asked to do so (to give the report himself). It also seems to me that in that seminal April 19, 1911 Board meeting when the chairman of the Standing Golf Committee, Robert Lesley, gave the report on the activities of the Wilson Committee (Committee on New Golf Grounds?), Lesley may've done so because Horatio Gates Lloyd as a member of the Board of Governors just did not attend that meeting. The above is in actual fact the way that club's administrative process worked via their By Laws and its administrative process. It is of maximal importance to understand that if one is to truly understand the way that club worked, how various special project functions worked, how various reports where given at Board meetings and by whom, and particularly why certain people may not have been mentioned (like Wilson) in certain Board Meeting minutes. Also, one doing this kind of historical research must consider the obvious fact that all the men of the membership working in these various administrative functions, and particularly to do with the development and creation of a new golf course, knew one another and what they were each doing in that special or ad hoc process. Also, the structure and intent of those types of Board Meeting minutes is not to be some chronicle of the club's history for future use but merely to let men in administrative positions get from the subjects of the preceding Board Meeting to the next one with sufficient recollection of where business was left off at the preceding Board meeting. To say that since Wilson was not mentioned at the Board level, at this point, and therefore could not have been doing the things that others reported outside board meetings that he was doing, is to fundamentally misunderstand how clubs like MCC worked administratively at that time and frankly still work today under Merion GC).
 
 
Points #3 and #4 to be responded to later.

DMoriarty

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Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #227 on: June 27, 2013, 10:01:02 PM »
1.  "Merion purchased the site based "largely" on Macdonald's and Whigham's views "as to what could be done with the property."

TEPaul had no choice but to agree with this.  Not only is it directly from the July 1, 1910 Board Minutes, it was reiterated to the entire membership in November of that year.  Obviously Merion placed great importance on Macdonald's and Whigham's opinions "as to what could be done with the land."  Yet TEPaul (and Mike Cirba) spend much of their time and efforts trying to downplay the importance of this early site visit.   Both TEPaul and Mike Cirba pretend that whatever Macdonald and Whigham were doing there in June of 1910, they most definitely weren't discussing how the holes would fit on the land.   But this is refuted by the record itself.  Macdonald and Whigham were advising Merion on "the most difficult problem" of how to fit 18 first class holes on the property!   To think that Merion would not have inquired of CBM and HJW advice as to how the holes is absurd.   It is true that, as CBM noted, Merion didn't yet have a contour map so CBM and HJW couldn't yet show them exactly how the holes would fit, but  that would soon be rectified.  

And, yes, in late December or the first week of January 1910, Merion's Board reported to the membership that "experts are at work preparing plans for a Golf Course that would rank in length, soil, and variety of hazards with the best in the country." But Tom Paul and Mike Cirba insist that this must have referred to Wilson and his committee, and not to the real experts involved.  To bolster this problematic claim, Tom Paul pretends that the "experts" announcement from Merion exactly corresponded with the appointment of Wilson's "Construction Committee" by falsely claiming that Wilson's chapter and the Francis article identified this as the "specific time that the committee was formed."  Neither did any such thing.  Francis, who was writing 40 years after the fact, doesn't even recall the exact year this was happening ("In 1909 or 1910 . . . ") and he definitely does not say a word about the timing of the creation of the Construction Committee.  Wilson places the timing in "early 1911" but does not provide any specifics beyond that.  (The first evidence of Wilson's involvement is not until February 1, 1911, but at that point it seems as likely that was acting on behalf of the Golf Committee as the construction committee. (His letters reference "for the Committee.")

And it is wishful thinking on TEPaul's part to suggest that there is any reason to believe that the "experts at work preparing plans for the golf course" were anyone but Macdonald, Whigham, (and/or an outside chance of  Barker.) They were the ONLY experts involved.  Wilson, Francis, and the rest were good club golfers but by Wilson's own words they were by no means "experts" at planning and designing golf courses. "The members of the committee had played golf for many years, but the experience of each in construction and greenkeeping was only that of the average club member. Looking back on the work, I feel certain that we would never have attempted to carry it out, if we had realized one-half the things we did not know."

[Yes, I have read what Mike Cirba has written on this point, but his attempts to bolster these guys' reputations with repeated references to 19th century, dark ages courses is so weak and attenuated that it does more to hurt his case than to help it.  Plus, Hugh Wilson spoke directly to the issue.  Between Hugh Wilson and Mike Cirba, I will go with Hugh Wilson every time.]

2. Macdonald and Whigham worked on figuring out the layout along with Merion's Golf Committee, and their "advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of the East Course were of the greatest help and value."

TEPaul's main objection to this point seems to be that it says that CBM/HJW were working with Merion's Golf Committee.  This despite the fact that the Merion's Minutes explicitly identify the committee involved as the Golf Committee.  No matter.  I'll change it.  CBM's and HJW's contributions stand just as tall even if Tom Paul and others choose to ignore Merion's own minutes on this issue.

2. Macdonald and Whigham worked on figuring out the layout along with Merion's Golf Committee representatives from Merion, and their "advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of the East Course were of the greatest help and value."

Better?

As for TEPaul's attempts at explaining the involvement of Merion's committees, this doesn't impact CBM's/HJW's involvement one bit.  But nonetheless, on most of the points therein Tom Paul is just flat out wrong and directly in contradiction to Merion's Minutes.  In short, he is playing fast and loose with the Minutes to create the false impression that Wilson's Construction Committee was in charge when in actuality there is NOTHING in the record so indicating.  He repeatedly provides the wrong names and descriptions for the committee's involved, and then extrapolates from these mistakes to draw various unsupportable conclusions   It is ironic given that in the past Tom Paul has gone on and on about the importance of understanding the committee structure, but when it comes to describing it he simply relies on wishful thinking rather than actual fact.  

TEPaul wrongly suggests that by November 1910 the "Search or Site" Committee's "work was completed" and that a new committee was formed with Lloyd as the "initial chairman" and that this new committee was what "the board referred to as 'The Committee on New Golf Grounds.'"  
   In fact, there was no new committee.  On November 23, 1910, the board specifically continued the existing committee.    "Mr. Sayers moves that Mssrs. Lloyd, Lesley, Baily, Bodine and Felton, the Special Committee on Golf, be continued, with the substitution of Mr. Lloyd as the Chairman of the Special Committee."
  And in fact, this committee had the exact same members it had had since at least April of 1910.  
  And in fact, the "Committee on New Golf Grounds" had been the name of the committee (sometimes) used as early as April 1910, but in November it was referred to simply as the "Special Committee on Golf."   In other words, this was most probably the Golf Committee.  Committee on Golf.  Golf Committee.

To bolster his theory that this committee became Wilson's committee, TEPaul falsely claims that "In a May or June 1911 Board meeting, the minutes record that Lloyd gave a verbal report for the Committee on New Golf Grounds on the latest work on the new East Course."   In fact, there was no such "report for the Committee on New Golf Grounds."  On multiple occasions in 1911, Lloyd did report on behalf of the  Merion Cricket Club Golf Association, but this notion that he reported "for the Committee on New Golf Grounds" in mid 1911 appears to be pure fiction.  He did report on behalf of the "Special Committee on Golf" on November 23, 1910, but then this too undermines TEPaul's various theories.  This was what Tom Paul calls the "Site  or Search" committee but it was now known as "Committee on Golf" and Wilson was not the chair of the Committee on Golf, nor was he even yet appointed to the committee.

 TEPaul speculates without basis that "(The Committee on New Golf Grounds) may also may very well have been the committee that Hugh Wilson chaired beginning in early Jan, 1911 with Lloyd, Griscom, Francis and Toulmin also on it." This makes no sense and is based on false assumptions about the various committees as partially outlined above.  Tom Paul is looking at the wrong committee.  And while Wilson and Griscom were added to the "Committee on Golf" or "Golf Committee" sometime in 1911, Francis and Toulmin were not.  And Wilson was not listed as the Chair of the Golf Committee in 1911.    

TEPaul mentions an irrelevant report from 1913 when Wilson was working on the West Course, but even here he fails to specifically and accurately identify the Committee for which Wilson was reporting.  (If it was a "Special Committee on New Golf Grounds" then the grounds were the West Course. And this would further undermine his falacous past claim that "Special" Committees were not allowed to report to the board.)

TEPaul speculates that the April 1911 "Golf Committee" report was actually a "Construction Committee" report but this is contrary to the Minutes themselves, as is his convoluted explanation.

I could go on, but I am sure anyone reading is very confused and bored by this point.   Suffice it to say that Tom Paul has his facts extremely confused when it comes to the various Merion Committees involved in the creation of the course.  It is very similar to what Mike Cirba tried to do with the Green Committee.  

They both are desperate to bootstrap the Construction Committee into the project where there is NO EVIDENCE the Construction Committee was yet involved.  
................................................................................

I have barely begun to consider Tom Paul's and Mike Cirba's answers to Shel's questions.  There is so much wrong or misleading in those answers that I am not sure it is even worth the trouble to even begin to do it.  
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 10:23:19 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #228 on: June 28, 2013, 08:32:24 AM »
David,

You are correct when you say that anyone reading that last post is bored and confused.  At least I am!  I have never really understood either of your views on that committee structure, and like you with topo maps, have sort of dismissed that as really that important to understanding the story.

That said, both of you really struggle with proving an unproveable point, and the basics of the argument still are there - you try to push the routing into 1910 with whatever snippets seem to prove your point that Wilson is overcredited.  However, there are just as many snippets in the record showing the routing was done when they say it was in 1911, with the trip to NGLA, the CBM trip back, etc.

As is typical with long disputes, it seems to be a matter of perspective.  Merion always had the notion that it was a home made project. So, maybe their words about it weren't 100% correct and their is some legend in there.  Perhaps they forgot just how much they leaned on CBM was (at least they soon after all the heavy lifting).

You don't think they could have done it with just three days advice from CBM, despite the majority of the record saying just that.  But, I can even imagine HJWhigham telling CBM something like "For all the answers you gave them, you might as well have done it yourself!" and voila, the next year, CBM was in the design biz (although unpaid)

If it takes five years and millions of words, lots of tedious triangles and the like, and the world still isn't convinced of your argument, it says something.  Not sure what, but it says something! :)

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

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Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #229 on: June 28, 2013, 11:24:15 AM »
Jeff,

I understand your feelings on the committee structure.   I'd not bother with it much at all except that both Tom Paul and Mike Cirba keep trying to twist the committee structure into something it was not, and their various claims are directly contradicted by Merion's Minutes.   Truth is most of what has been discussed over the years is irrelevant and tangential, but when it comes to Hugh Wilson's early involvement in the preconstruction planning, they have no choice but to try to create something out of nothing.   Just like with the fake earlier trip abroad they created to try and hang onto the legend.

As for what happened in 1910, here is what you recently wrote:  "We generally agree that in June 1910, CBM carefully considered whether a golf course would fit on their property.  I agree he probably saw the 13th as a gem location for his favorite short hole, and I have always figured that he studied the property enough to know that they needed an 11/7 split of holes across Ardmore, based on space available.  I figure he knew there were 4 hole corridors south of Ardmore - two each side of the creek.  He probably did quick length studies to see how those 11 or so holes might fit.  I believe they discussed the necessity of the Dallas property that day, and it took all of July and August to finish that land deal, in secret, of course."

While I'd go a bit further, I'd say that is a pretty reasonable assessment of the types of things we agree they were doing in 1910.

As some of the rest of your post, I am afraid you are twisting my words and the record, but no use going down that road again.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 11:53:31 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #230 on: June 28, 2013, 11:40:37 AM »
Near the end of Jeff's post he speculates that CBM's experience in dealing with Merion might have convinced him that it was easier just to do it himself in the future.  (As Jeff put it, to go into the "design biz" for himself)  This is an interesting observation and probably worth exploring.  I'd modify it to say that CBM's experiences with Merion might have had something to do with how Raynor got into the design business.  

Here is what CBM had to say about the issue in Scotland's Gift:

     After the National had gained more or less of an international reputation I was approached and importuned by various friends in different parts of the country to make plans for constructing golf courses for them, they little dreaming of the time and work this involved.  This labor did not pall me at first, for I was flattered and happy to feel I was attaining the much dreamed of objective, architectural constructing classical golfing holes that would challenge criticism throughout the golfing world. I was contented with the knowledge that I was really contributing something to American Golf and at the same time had the pleasing sense of gratifying my more intimate friends.
     In accomplishing this end it was imperative I secure an associate, one well educated with wide engineering capabilities, including surveying, companionable, with a fine sense of humor, but above all, earnest and ideally honorable.  Such a man I found in Seth J. Raynor.


Merion was one of the places that asked CBM to make plans for constructing golf courses for them, and his experiences dealing with Merion may have gone a long way toward convincing Macdonald that in the future he needed to use Raynor on such projects.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 12:16:00 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #231 on: June 28, 2013, 12:35:59 PM »
David,

Yes, I was fascinated by Merion being the last club he apparently consulted with in a big way all the way back to the beginning of these discussions.  While I tend to humorously interject how I envision that conversation might have gone, I do recall the quote you just posted.

We can read a lot into that statement, but don't really know other than soon after Merion (maybe somewhere during the process) he obviously decided to take Raynor on.  It might not have been Merion at all.  However, his words of "them little dreaming of the time and work involved" does mimic Wilson's words closely. And he hints that the need to go do it himself came to him slowly, after many such requests.

We would love to have some of those ideas recorded.  In fact, I always wondered if there might just be some snippet in the Sleepy Hollow or Piping Rock records that CBM might reference as a way to either emulate or turn away from what they did at Merion.

Again, all speculation, but since there isn't likely to be much new in the Merion record, that might be worth a try.  Not sure what other sources might be out there.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

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Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #232 on: June 28, 2013, 01:26:02 PM »
Jeff,

I doubt Merion was the last course where CBM "consulted . . . in a big way"  but it very well could have been the last course where he consulted "in a big way" without Raynor.  As both CBM and Whigham describe it, Raynor soon became CBM's man in the field, whereas Macdonald would work on the plans back in New York.  

Merion is unique in that (at least twice) Macdonald and Whigham were actually out there on the property trying to figure out how the holes would best fit on the land.  Ironically, Macdonald may have had more onsite involvement at Merion that at some of the other courses which we associate with him.  

Merion is also unique, though, in that Raynor did not build the course, so it looked nothing like the Macdonald courses built by Raynor. 

Given Wilson's propensity for asking questions and seeking expert advice (see the voluminous Piper and Oakley letters) I imagine that Wilson probably drove Macdonald a little nuts.  (While we don't have the correspondence between the two, the record does indicate that Wilson was still going to Macdonald for advice even after Macdonald had approved the final routing plan.)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 01:28:05 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #233 on: June 29, 2013, 08:33:26 AM »
David,

I agree he did do some consulting later,but it probably reduced on occaisions where Raynor wasn't involved.  Guilty of that black and white thinking, and usually history isn't tied up into such neat time frame, and usually has some overlap. 

Another interesting line of conjecture would be just how the many CBM courses might look different had he spent more time in the field.  As we know, Raynor was pretty strict about how he built the holes CBM envisioned.  We have to wonder if some of them might have been more adaptive to the topo (even though Raynor later did have a flare for that) if CBM visited more often.  Well, no matter.  Most of them are pretty darn good even with Raynor doing much of the building.

That said, and speaking of black and white, vs. gray, I would find it hard to believe that CBM didn't visit his proposed designs at least once in the field for routing, and at least once in the field to review construction. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

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Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #234 on: June 29, 2013, 12:45:08 PM »
I don't think we know how much behind the scenes advising Macdonald was doing on courses where Raynor was hired to do the work.  I think it is a pretty fair guess that initially one big advantage of hiring Raynor was his close connection to Macdonald, whether or not Macdonald ever actually visited the golf course.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mark McKeever

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Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #235 on: July 01, 2013, 02:52:52 PM »
From a lurker.


David Moriarty wrote:
 
The following is far from a complete picture of what one can reasonably infer from the record, but at the very least we all ought to be able to agree these points:

1.  Merion purchased the site based "largely" on Macdonald's and Whigham's views "as to what could be done with the property."
2.  Macdonald and Whigham worked on figuring out the layout along with Merion's Golf Committee, and their "advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of the East Course were of the greatest help and value."
3.  Merion's Golf Committee brought Macdonald and Whigham back to Merion so that they could reinspect the land and determine the final layout plan from a number of options laid out before them by said Committee. The plan they came up with was then submitted to the Merion's Board as the one which had been "approved" by Macdonald and Whigham.
4.  Merion put Hugh Wilson in charge of laying the course out on the ground according to the plan Macdonald and Whigham had "approved."
 
...And Alex Findlay gives us a pretty good idea of who Hugh Wilson thought was responsible for Merion's layout.  After spending an hour discussing the course with Wilson, Findlay wrote that Macdonald was responsible for the layout of many or all of the golf holes.   

 
 
All,
 
"Far from a complete picture" is quite the understatement, in my opinion.   So this thread doesn't just become a litany of completely unsupportable statements masquerading as facts (i.e."Merion was one of the places that asked CBM to make plans for constructing golf courses for them.", or "Findlay wrote that Macdonald was responsible for the layout of many or all of the golf holes."), I thought I'd weigh in and respond on what I agree one can "reasonably infer" from the facts.
 
1) Agreed, although it's a bit suspicious when one considers the very lukewarm recommendation received from Macdonald.   The Merion Site Committee report read; "After the visit of these gentlemen Mr. Macdonald wrote to a member of the Committee, expressing expressing the views of himself and Mr. Wigham (sic), as to what could be done with the property.  The report, as made to the Board, embodied Mr. Macdonald's letter, but it was not written for publication.   We do not, therefore, feel justified in printing it.   We can properly say, however, that it was, in general terms, favorable, and the Committee based its recommendation largely upon their opinion."
 
This report was part of a mailing to the Merion membership made on November 15, 1910, approximately six months after the visit of Macdonald and Whigham.   Unlike Merion's board, I have no worries about printing it.
 
Here is what Macdonald and Whigham wrote they believed "could be done with the property." as of that date.   This was the only mention of Macdonald and Whigham in the November mailing that included a scale map of the land Merion believed they had secured at that time, indicating 117 acres.   The land plan has no golf course routing, or any holes included.
 
New York, June 29, 1910
Horatio G. Lloyd, Esq.
c/o Messrs. Drexel and Co.
Philadelphia, Pa

Dear Mr. Lloyd:

Mr. Whigham and I discussed the various merits of the land you propose buying, and we think it has some very desirable features.  The quarry and the brooks can be made much of.  What it lacks in abrupt mounds can be largely rectified.

We both think that your soil will produce a firm and durable turf through the fair green quickly.  The putting greens of course will need special treatment, as the grasses are much finer.

The most difficult problem you have to contend with is to get in eighteen holes that will be first class in the acreage you propose buying.  So far as we can judge, without a contour map before us, we are of the opinion that it can be done, provided you get a little more land near where you propose making your Club House.  The opinion that a long course is always the best course has been exploded.  A 6000 yd. course can be made really first class, and to my mind it is more desirable than a 6300 or a 6400 yd. course, particularly where the roll of the ball will not be long, because you cannot help with the soil you have on that property having heavy turf.  Of course it would be very fast when the summer baked it well.

The following is my idea of a  6000 yard course:

One 130 yard hole
One 160    "
One 190    "
One 220 yard to 240 yard hole,
One 500 yard hole,
Six 300 to 340 yard holes,
Five 360 to 420    "
Two 440 to 480    "

As regards drainage and treatment of soil, I think it would be wise for your Committee to confer with the Baltusrol Committee.  They had a very difficult drainage problem.  You have a very simple one.  Their drainage opinions will be valuable to you.  Further, I think their soil is very similar to yours, and it might be wise to learn from them the grasses that have proved most satisfactory though the fair green.

In the meantime, it will do no harm to cut a sod or two and send it to Washington for analysis of the natural grasses, those indigenous to the soil.

We enjoyed our trip to Philadelphia very much, and were very pleased to meet your Committee.

With kindest regards to you all, believe me,

Yours very truly,

(signed)  Charles B. Macdonald

In soil analysis have the expert note particularly amount of carbonate of lime.

 
It seems to me that Merion was pretty much sold on this particular site prior to Macdonald's visit, likely due to the lucrative opportunity to couple the new course with the real estate venture, proximity to transportation, and a large farmhouse that could be used for a clubhouse.   Although Merion looked at a few sites, they only brought Macdonald and Whigham to the site in Ardmore.   
 
 2. There is no solid evidence, much less proof, that Macdonald and Whigham worked on "figuring out the layout" along with any Committee at Merion.   "Advice and suggestions as to the layout", which was mentioned later by Alan Wilson could mean any number of things, such as the generic balance of hole yardages and agronomic advice in the letter above..   Hugh Wilson, who was actually at NGLA (as opposed to his brother Alan), tells us that Macdonald gave his Committee ”…a good start in the correct principles of laying out the holes…Through sketches and explanations of the correct principles of the holes that form the famous courses abroad…we learned what was right and what we should try to accomplish with our natural conditions.  The next day we spent going over the course and studying the different holes.”   In fact, it's very unlikely that Macdonald participated in the routing process because the MCC Minutes tell us that the Committee, not Macdonald, "upon returning" from NGLA, re-arranged the course and created five different plans in the March/April 1911 timeframe. 
 
3. I'm not sure that CBM and Whigham"determined" the final layout out of the "five different plans" the Merion Committee created upon their return from NGLA.   From reading Richard Francis's account, Merion's Committee seeemed to favor that particular plan, as well, so it wasn't a solo effort by CBM and Whigham   The only problem with the plan Francis's brainstorm facilitated was that it required them to purchase 120 acres, not the 117 they had originally agreed to purchase in November of 1910 and referenced again in Wilson's February 1911 letter to Piper.   Thus, the matter had to go for approval of the Board of Governors in April 1911 where approval to purchase the original three acres was sought and gained.     The record is clear, though, that CBM and Whigham "approved" the plan, but because CBM had absolutely no position of responsibility or authority acting for or within the club, or over Wilson’s Committee, I think the first definition below is clearly the accurate one;
 
ap•prove ( -pr v )
v. ap•proved, ap•prov•ing, ap•proves
v.tr.
1. To consider right or good; think or speak favorably of.
2. To consent to officially or formally; confirm or sanction:
 
In fact, when one considers the purpose of the April Board request was seeking additional money for three more acres than originally believed needed, it is very possible that one reason for bringing CBM back to Merion in April 1911 was simply to get the blessing of his learned opinion that could be used to convince the MCC Board of the necessity and wisdom of spending the additional funds.
 
And evidently, CBM and Whigham did consider the final plan "right or good" and they did "think and speak favorably of" the routing as Merion's Committee certainly hoped.  Not only did they say it "would result in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to any inland course in the world."   But, then the kicker and the likely reason for the effusive language; In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary to acquire 3 acres additional."
 
The MCC Minutes then show how all of this tied to the Francis land exchange; "Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing a proposed layout (a paper copy of which was attached -comment mine) of the new Golf Ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of land already purchased for other land adjoining and the purchase of three acres addiitional to cost about $7500.00, and asked the approval of this Board, it was on motion."
 
"Resolved, that this Board approve of the purchase and exchange, and agree to pay as part of the rental the interest on the additional purchase."

 
It should be noted that the three acres in question here were not the 3 acres near the railroad tracks that the club rented for $1 annually.   When Merion's course opened, it was 123 acres, made up of the 117 the club "acquired" in November 1910, the 3 acres additional "necessitated" by the reconfiguration of land to accommodate the Francis land exchange, and the 3 acres rented from the Railroad.
 
4. Actually, it's pretty funny and clever how David phrased his statement to make it appear that Wilson was assigned to "laying out the course upon the ground according to the plan that Macdonald and Whigham had "approved", as if Wilson's assignment was subsequent to Macdonald and Whigham approving one of the plans.   
 
Of course, the reality is that Wilson's Committee was formed in January of 1911, and Macdonald and Whigham's visit was in April of that year.  Why don't we just let the men who were there tell us the purpose of Wilson's Committee?
 
Hugh Wilson told us; Our problem was to lay out the course, build and seed eighteen greens and fifteen fairways..
 
Richard Francis of Wilson's Committee told us the Committee was "in charge of laying out and building a new course" and that he was "added to it".   Francis went on to tell us what that meant;
 
"Except for many hours over a drawing board, running instruments in the field and just plain talking, I made but one important contribution to the layout of the course.   The land was shaped like a capital "L", and it was not very difficult to get the first 13 holes into the upright portion - with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore Avenue - but the last 5 holes were another question."
 
I was looking at a map of the property one night when I had an idea.   Not realizing that it was nearly midnight, I called Mr. Lloyd on the telephone...The idea was this:  We had some property west of the present course which did not fit in at all with any golf layout.   Perhaps we could swap it for some that we could use?"
 
Sorta sounds like golf course routing to me.   It's also illuminating to note that at the time of Francis's brainstorm, there were multiple golf "layouts" still under consideration.
 
Merion's Board of Governors, in accepting Wilson's resignation as Chairman of the Green Committee in November 1914 made no distinction between what he and his Committee were tasked with in the creation of both of Merion's courses; ...in accepting Mr. Wilson’s resignation as Chairman of the Green Committee, this Board desires to record its appreciation of the invaluable service rendered by him to the Club in the laying out and supervision of the construction of the East and West Golf Courses.
 
Finally, a bit more on which greens were reconstructed and the extent of those changes.   The following article from April 1916 shows that four new greens were being constructed.   It should be noted that the "3rd" at the time was today's 6th.
 

 
Regarding the 17th, I've gone back through and don't find anyone in Wilson's time referring to the front terrace as a "Valley of Sin".   I believe later writers may have made that connection.   In any case, here's the best  early photo I can find of the 17th and I'm not sure it's possible to determine if that fronting terrace existed originally.   I added a contemporary photo for comparision purposes.
 
Thanks all...hope to see a number of you at Paramount tomorrow.   Cheers, Mike


 

Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #236 on: July 02, 2013, 06:48:31 PM »
Mike's post above is a good example of why these conversations go nowhere.  My four points were taken directly from Merion's own records, but this isn't good enough for Mike.  He cannot even take Merion's Board Minutes at face value!  

1. Merion purchased the site based "largely" on Macdonald's and Whigham's views "as to what could be done with the property."  

Mike can't deny this.  It is directly from the minutes AND from Merion's communications to the members.  Yet still, he is "suspicious."  "Suspicious" of Lesley's Committee.  "Suspicious" of Merion's Board.   Suspicious?   More like he just cannot (or will not) accept that Merion highly valued Macdonald's and Whigham's opinion and that their opinions were of the greatest help and value.   So he pretends that Macdonald's opinions were "lukewarm" even though Merion obviously didn't think so.  The only thing that could possibly be construed as "lukewarm" was CBM and HJW acknowledgement that the problem of fitting the holes was "most difficult" and that needed more information. Merion did not yet have contour map, and that would soon change.  

Of course Mike's head is so deep in the sand that pretends that Merion would never have bothered to actually provide Macdonald with the contour map, or to even discuss a potential routing with them!   It is silly.  The foremost experts on designing courses tell Merion that they their "most difficult problem" was fitting the holes, yet Mike believes this issue never came up over the next 9 months of CBM's involvement; that it never came up when they were discussing what could be done with the land, never came up in the intervening months, never came up when CBM was advising them about the layout at NGLA, and never came up when CBM was back at Merion going over the land.  He apparently thinks the men of Merion must have been idiots.   They had CB Macdonald and HJ Whigham at their disposal, and all CBM and HJW needed was a contour map.  Yet Mike thinks Merion wouldn't have  given it to them? And they wouldn't have asked how CBM thought the holes would fit?  

Mike loves cheesy little pretend conversations, so here is one for him:
     CBM:  Your "most difficult problem" is how to fit 18 first class holes on the property. Without a contour map . . .
     Merion: Wait, wait, don't tell us!  We don't want to know!!  We just like your company, and we think it funny we made you come all the way to Philadelphia for nothing.  So don't tell us now as we walk around the land, and definitely don't bother telling us for 8 months.  And when we show up on your doorstep looking for help, definitely don't tell us then.  And when we bring you back down to go over the land again, definitely don't tell us then.  We don't want to know.  We want to torture ourselves by having you involved every step of the way without you ever addressing our "most difficult problem."  We don't want you to help us, we just like you around.  And you aren't even on a committee so that there proves you couldn't help anyway!


2.  Macdonald and Whigham worked on figuring out the layout along with representatives of Merion, and their "advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of the East Course were of the greatest help and value."

Mike is so far gone that he cannot even accept that CBM and HJW helped Merion!  Specifically, doesn't think there is any "solid evidence" that CBM/HJW were working on the layout with Merion.  Never mind the minutes.  Never mind Alan Wilson's statement.  Never mind Hugh Wilson's statement.  He apparently thinks that Merion brought them to Merion TWICE, and traveled to NGLA so that CBM/HJW could give them a general symposium on golf courses, and that planning the layout never came up.   He apparently thinks that when CBM told them that he thought he could solve there "most difficult" problem of how to fit eighteen first class holes on the land that this had nothing to do with the layout.   He apparently thinks that even though the record indicates that CBM was advising them about the plans for the layout, that this wasn't really about the layout.  He apparently thinks that the statement that there advice and suggestions "as to the layout of the East Course" didn't have anything to do with the layout of the East course.  

In short, Mike's position is farcical.  He is in denial.  

3. Merion's Golf Committee brought Macdonald and Whigham back to Merion so that they could reinspect the land and determine the final layout plan from a number of options laid out before them by said Committee.  The plan they came up with was then submitted to the Merion's Board as the one which had been "approved" by Macdonald and Whigham.

Again, we have a definite statement from Merion's Board Minutes.  But Mike knows better.  So he downplays and dismisses the fact that Merion's own minutes indicate that Macdonald and Whigham "approved" the final plan.  Specifically parses words and provides dictionary definitions to put forth the ridiculous idea that Macdonald and Whigham couldn't have really "approved" the plan in a meaningful way because Macdonald had "absolutely no position of responsibility or authority acting for or within the club, or over Wilson’s Committee."  Really, Mike, is that the best you can do?  

Of course they had no official position.  So what?  Merion nonetheless turned to them for guidance and followed that guidance.  As Wilson said, they realized the value of his good advice, and they followed it.  He didn't need to be chair of any committee to have authority over the project. He was, after all, Charles Blair Macdonald.  His authority stemmed from his reputation and his unsurpassed expertise.

4. Merion put Hugh Wilson in charge of laying the course out on the ground according to the plan Macdonald and Whigham had "approved."

Mike cannot deny that the course was laid out on the ground according to the plan approved by Macdonald and Whigham, because this is directly from the minutes. So instead he tries to blur the issue by arguing that the Construction Committee must have been involved as well.  

If so, then so what?  I am not denying that Merion played a role in the planning and I never have. Mike is the one denying Macdonald's involvement, even though the record leaves no doubt!  (See his latest post, for example.)  Whether they were involved in the planning or not, my statement is accurate.  Wilson and his committee laid the course out on the ground according to the plan CBM/HJW approved.

As for when the CONSTRUCTION COMMITTEE was formed, Mike claims it was in January 1911, but he has no proof of that. It was sometime in early 1911, but we don'tknow when.  Wilson was working on the project by February 1, but we don't know for which Committee.     Mike just pretends it was definitely the Construction Committee.  He states these things are facts and he hopes no one will notice.

But no matter the committee, my statement is true.  And my previous statement Nos. 2 and 3 acknowledged Merion was involved too.   Not good enough for Mike though.   He insists on diminishing CBM's/HJW's involvement despite Merion's own records!  
........................................................

As for the old photo of the 17th, the lens is extremely wide and thus the green is barely visible in the center distance, but nonetheless upslope onto the green is visible as well.   This notion that Wilson's committee added the huge swale short of the green after the fact is nothing but wishful thinking on Mike's part!   (When Mike first posted it he wasn't even looking at the actual green (I am not sure he is now) but that didn't stop him from trying to use the photo to support his point.)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 09:41:51 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #237 on: July 02, 2013, 11:47:07 PM »

David,

If it takes five years and millions of words, lots of tedious triangles and the like, and the world still isn't convinced of your argument, it says something. 

Jeff,

Since when were you appointed spokesperson for "the world" ?

You may not be convinced, but don't pretend to speak for others.



Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #238 on: July 03, 2013, 04:09:21 AM »

David,

If it takes five years and millions of words, lots of tedious triangles and the like, and the world still isn't convinced of your argument, it says something. 

Jeff,

Since when were you appointed spokesperson for "the world" ?

You may not be convinced, but don't pretend to speak for others.



"I am Spartacus!"  Oops, I meant, "I am unconvinced!"
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #239 on: July 03, 2013, 04:13:24 AM »

David,

If it takes five years and millions of words, lots of tedious triangles and the like, and the world still isn't convinced of your argument, it says something. 

Jeff,

Since when were you appointed spokesperson for "the world" ?

You may not be convinced, but don't pretend to speak for others.



Convinced of what?  I think David (and others) has clearly shown CBM was involved with the design and deserves some credit.  I think David and others) has also clearly shown that Wilson was for the most part the main man in charge and thus deserves the bulk of the credit.  Whats the beef here?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #240 on: July 03, 2013, 07:53:39 AM »
Pat,

And no one appointed you to be an arrogant jerk, either, and yet, here you are!  Besides, I am not speaking for the world, just doing an informal head count of those interested.  And, no doubt, David's theory is still controversial today, five years later, so the statement remains factual.

Sean,

I could post a bunch of stuff relating to both sides, but you are right on the money.  No one denies CBM was involved.  No one denies Wilson was involved.  It has come down to a pissing match between strong willed parties, so they really all invent some great arguments to keep it going over what seem to have been narrowed to small differences.

I have gone further than most (and heard about it) in trying to find middle ground.  No one seems to be buying!

As far as I can tell, the biggest opposition/contention is David's time line of a 1910 routing, which puts CBM more in charge.  I disagree, as most know, with that timeline. 

Also, David cannot seem to accept that it is possible for Merion to have called CBM out there just to advise on their well down the line land purchase without routing.  Again, I have been involved in many first things first projects where not a lot of routing was considered before land purchase, so I have no doubt it could have been limited to that at Merion.

So the question is, if CBM noticed the little creek near the clubhouse would be wonderful for his template hole, as most would on a site tour, does that constitute routing?  It's a stretch, given all the other data points.

But, regardless of unknowable details, at which we can only make probable guesses, it still seems like they say the same things but want a different emphasis on similar conclusions.  Reminds me of the childhood arguments of "my dad can beat up your dad."  Given my dad never fought anyone, I never had to know if my boasts were true! 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #241 on: July 03, 2013, 12:48:30 PM »


And no one appointed you to be an arrogant jerk, either, and yet, here you are!  


You take it upon yourself to speak for "the world" when in fact you're just putting forth your own opinion.
And, when called upon your assumed arrogant position, you get nasty.
Typical of your reaction when your posts are challenged and shown to be faulty.


Besides, I am not speaking for the world, just doing an informal head count of those interested.

That's not what you stated.
You falsely postured that you were speaking for "the world", and not just some random folks you know.
Try to read what you type, it might help you to better understand responses.
To now deny what you actually posted is typical of your backtracking methods, but, the record is clear as to the words you typed.
You claimed to be the authority that determined world opinion on David's premise/position, and you're far from it.
 

And, no doubt, David's theory is still controversial today, five years later, so the statement remains factual.

Once again, you're inabity to think logically is tainted by your self interest........ ie your position.

While it's true that David's premise/theory remains controversial, that doesn't mean that
"the world still isn't convinced of your argument", it only means that a segment of those interested aren't convinced of his argument.  For you to expand the thinking of a few people opposed to his premise/theory into a global, universal denial is .............disingenuous at best.

You know that, I know that and everyone participating and lurking knows that.

Don't speak for other people, especially those you don't even know.
[/color]

 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 12:52:07 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #242 on: July 03, 2013, 01:23:26 PM »
And, no doubt, David's theory is still controversial today, five years later, so the statement remains factual.

Actually Jeff, while everything I wrote was quite controversial when I first suggested it, about 95% of my position has been readily adopted as conventional wisdom at Merion, so much so that Mike and Wayne and TEPaul have adopted my and Tom Macwood's positions as their own and actually have the nerve to try to take credit for some of what we figured out (see the origins of this thread for example.)  You must have forgotten what a mess these guys had made of Merion's early history from the land acquisition through the planning.

My IMO had something like 23 topic headings and everyone contained information that had never before been brought forward, and almost all of which has now been begrudgingly accepted.  To name a few things only, the Barker routing, the real estate component, the importance of HG Lloyd to the process, the original reason (financial) that Merion claimed they moved, the importance of the NGLA trip and the timing of said trip DURING the planning, CBM's involvement in the land selection and the planning and Merion's reliance on their advice,  the structure of HDC, the timing and general extent of CBM's involvement, the undeniable reliance of Merion on his advice,  the important distinction in Merion's case between planning and laying the course out on the ground, and of course the refutation of the beloved Hugh Wilson legend.   If you want a laugh, read an old draft of the Faker manuscript and you will see how far we have come, or better yet, for high comedy, go back and peruse Mike Cirba's old posts from the beginning.  

So yes, there are still some like Cirba who will go to his grave refusing to acknowledge CBM's important contributions, but those like Cirba are hardly my concern.  His approach ultimately has done more to help my case than hurt it.

As for who deserves "credit" it has never really been my concern.    Credit who you will, but by design Merion was very much from the CBM school of architecture.   That is why it was great then and why it remains great now.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #243 on: July 04, 2013, 12:38:44 AM »
Credit who you will

Having read _way_ too much of this, it's still unfortunate to me that Mr Cirba chose to credit nameless "golf historians and researchers" instead of giving due credit.

That seemed poor form and needlessly ungenerous.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #244 on: July 04, 2013, 08:38:32 AM »
Joe,

The "Merionettes" are a resentful breed, not prone to giving credit where credit is due.

So much more is known about Merion thanks toTom MacWood and David Moriarty

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #245 on: July 04, 2013, 11:00:23 AM »
Patrick,

You are correct that much more is known because of the research of DM and TM.  Some of that extra knowledge is the result of extra research by others - for friendly reasons or, perhaps, otherwise.

BTW, I hope your reference to "Merionettes" does not include the membership-at-large or, even, those whom I consider to be "the people who matter".

This long-running brouhaha is not even on the radar screen of 95+% (my estimate with no FACTS to support it) of the membership.  "The people who matter" are, in fact, interested in knowing whatever can be reasonably considered to be the probable truth, but they are not supportive of the antagonistic atmosphere - despite the resultant advancement of accurate history.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #246 on: July 04, 2013, 04:44:49 PM »
Posted for Mike Cirba
-------------------------------------
Joe Perches,
 
I've always value your opinion here so I wanted to point out that I believe you may have missed something.   First, when David was talking about giving credit, I may be wrong but think he was talking about credit to Wilson or Macdonald.  
 
This whole thread was precipitated by Lynn's question of credit after the Golf Digest article came out and although I posted it here years before, here's my take on that which I believe is accurate;   1) At some point, Wayne and Tom discovered that Wilson made A trip abroad in the spring of 1911 from reading Richard Francis's letter to Piper and Oakley that spring.   2) At some point, David Moriarty discovered that Wilson made A trip abroad in the spring of 1911 by finding a ship's manifest on an online site.   Sometime after, Tom MacWood produced an article from abroad making clear that Wilson's spring 1911 visit was to check out golf courses.   Still, a bunch of us argued that this couldn't have been Wilson's first trip but we were wrong.   Finally, 3) Joe Bausch found an article written by Alex Findlay from June 1911 that made clear that this was indeed Wilson's first trip abroad for golf related purposes.
 
My IMO article was due to a great deal of prior research by others, and if you go to the end of it, you'll find the following;
 
Please note: I dedicate this piece to Mr. Pete Trenham, PGA, for his wonderful research and gentlemanly example.
*The author wishes to acknowledge and humbly thank a variety of golf course historians, researchers, authors, and interested parties for the benefit of their prior publications and research materials and for providing background information from which this article is gleaned.   Those would include, in alphabetical order, Joseph Bausch, Jim Finegan, Brad Klein, the late Tom MacWood, David Moriarty, Wayne Morrison, Tom Paul, Geoff Shackelford, Jeff Silverman, and Phil Young.   In particular, I would be remiss to not mention many of the news articles that give depth and resonance to this piece were unearthed through the dedicated and time-consuming research of “Indiana Joe(nes)” Bausch, to whom I am exceptionally grateful.
 
In Ran's introduction to my article, he wrote; In an email exchange, Mike notes, “The intent of the piece is to have something good, productive, and meaningful come out of all the Merion debates here over the years. Truth be told, David Moriarty’s previous In My Opinion, controversial as it may have been, led to an enormous amount of additional research and findings that have benefited all of our collective understandings of the origins of Merion east and early golf in Philadelphia. I hope the piece reflects that learning.”   Hear, hear!
 
I hope this clarifies things...thanks.
 
All,
 
Today I was able to determine that Winthrop Sargent served as Chairman of the Merion Green Committee continuously from November 1914 into at least 1923.   As such, I'm considering adding the following section to my recently posted "Who Was Hugh Wilson?" "In My Opnion" essay.   Constructive comments and criticisms are solicited and welcomed.   Thanks!
 
 
Hugh Wilson’s playing reputation and considerable experience and precociousness evidently preceded him because when he joined Merion in 1903 records show he immediately played as second man for the club in inter-club team competitions behind Griscom, as well as playing for Philadelphia in the Inter-City matches against New York and Boston .  
 
Although we don’t know exactly when Wilson was appointed to the Merion Green Committee, it seems extremely likely that the primary reason he was appointed Chairman of the Merion “Special Construction Committee” (as Alan Wilson termed it) charged with the design and construction of the new golf course is because he had already served for an extended period as Chairman of the Merion Green Committee before 1911.  
 
In 1934, writing for the US Open program, then Club President Robert Lesley wrote; “In connection with these two courses, both of which are of championship character and have received the most favorable comments in golf circles all over the world, it may be stated that the reason for this successful development is due to the fact that during this period from 1909 to the present day Merion’s Green Committee has been kept almost intact from its origin up to today and only five Chairmen of the Green Committee have had charge of the work and development of the courses, thus insuring a consistent, systematic, and wide development.   These Chairmen were; Hugh I. Wilson, Winthrop Sargent, and John R. Maxwell, who are now deceased, and Arnold Gerstell and Philip C. Staples.”
 
It should be noted that Maxwell, Gerstell, and Staples all served in the later 1920s and early 1930s after the death of Hugh Wilson.   Winthrop Sargent served during the period from late 1914 until at least 1923 (as indicated in Spalding’s ”American Annual Golf Guide”), and in fact took over from Hugh Wilson when the latter resigned, as recorded in the Merion Cricket Club Minutes of November 23, 1914; “The resignation of Mr. Hugh I. Wilson, as Chairman of the Green Committee, was presented…the following resolution was adopted:
 
RESOLVED, that in accepting Mr. Wilson’s resignation as Chairman of the Green Committee, this Board desires to record its appreciation of the invaluable service rendered by him to the Club in the laying out and supervision of the construction of the East and West Golf Courses. The fact that these courses are freely admitted by expert players to be second to none in this country, demonstrates more fully than anything else that can be said, the ability and good judgment displayed by Mr. Wilson in his work.  
 
The Board desires to express on behalf of the Club its sincere thanks to Mr. Wilson and its regret that pressure of business makes it necessary for him to relinquish the duties of Chairman of this important committee.  On motion duly seconded, Mr. Winthrop Sargent was appointed a member of the Golf Committee and Chairman of the Green Committee.”

 
Sargent had evidently previously served as Chairman of the Green Committee in 1911, which would make perfect sense as Hugh Wilson had been appointed to head the new “Construction Committee” in January of that same year, charged with responsibility for the new course.   At the time, the club would have needed both roles filled as they were simultaneously continuing to serve the needs of the golfing membership at their original course at Haverford while casting an excited eye on their future in Ardmore .
 
Interestingly, there seemed to be some significant overlap in both membership and roles between the Green and “Construction” Committees.   Robert Lesley, who was Chairman of the standing “Golf Committee” at the time the Merion courses were designed and built wrote in 1934, “Hugh I. Wilson and his Green Committee laid out Merion’s first course on the new land and it is now what is known as the “East Course”.”   Lesley later continued, “…a second eighteen hole course,  now known as the “West Course”…was created by Hugh I. Wilson and his associates on the Green Committee.”
 
It was common practice in Philadelphia (and other cities) at that time for the Chairman of the Green Committee of various clubs to undertake what is today regarded as golf course architecture, and almost an expectation of the job.   This effort often took the shape of trying to make significant improvements to their often “professionally-designed”, turn-of-the-century, courses in an effort to make them more challenging for new ball and an increasingly popular game in the city.  
 
Green Chairmen such as Edward Bispham at the Philadelphia Country Club, Samuel Heebner at Philadelphia Cricket, Rodman Griscom at early Merion, Henry Strouse at Philmont, and AH (“Ab”) Smith at Huntingdon Valley all worked continually at adding bunkering, rebuilding greens, as well as creating brand new holes and lengthening others.
 
Others such as George Klauder at Aronimink, George Thomas at Whitemarsh Valley , and J. Franklin Meehan at North Hills each had opportunity to significantly contribute to the design of brand new courses during this period, each working with other prominent members of their respective clubs.
 
In the case of Hugh Wilson, in April of 1916 Philadelphia golf-writer and insider William Evans wrote, “The changes have been made by the Green Committee under the most efficient chairmanship of Winthrop Sargent and Hugh Wilson, to whose genius Merion owes both its courses.”
 
Evans then wrote, “In addition, Mr. Wilson, for many years chairman of the Green Committee at Merion…”   This is particularly noteworthy because at the time this was written, Wilson had not been Green Chairman since his voluntary resignation in November of 1914.    If Wilson ’s tenure as Green Chairman had only been from 1912 until November 1914 it is very unlikely that Evans would have termed it “many years.”
 
In 1923, another well-connected local golf-writer J.E. Ford (using pen-name “Donnie MacTee”) claimed thtat Wilson served seven years as Chairman of the Green Committee before his voluntary retirement; “Responsible for these improvements in the already unsurpassed east course is Hugh Wilson, a pioneer golfer here and chairman of the Merion green committee for seven years – or until his voluntary retirement.”
 
“Mr. Wilson was one of the original designers of the Merion course and the holes just constructed are the ones he wished for, but was prevented from building when the course was designed.   He is still a very active member of the greens committee, to whom all questions of architecture and grasses are referred as a matter of course.”
 
Of course, “seven years” as Chairman before his “voluntary retirement” is much more consistent with the “many years” in that role that Evans wrote in 1916.  If accurate, and there is no apparent reason to doubt the veracity or understanding of Lesley, Evans, or Ford, it would have placed Hugh Wilson in the Chair of the Merion Green Committee from approximately 1908 through 1914, (with the exception of 1911 as discussed prior) consistent with the timeframe Robert Lesley later referred to when he wrote that continuity of the Committee Chairmanship was responsible for the success of Merion’s golf courses.  It would also seem logical that Wilson must have served as a Committee member for some years prior to being appointed Chairman.
 
If these reports are accurate, Hugh Wilson would also have been Chairman of the Green Committee in 1909; the year Merion hosted the US Women’s Amateur on its original course in Haverford.   That course had nine holes originally designed by Scottish professional Willie Campbell in 1896 with ensuing revisions and another nine added by Rodman Griscom and his Green Committee in 1899.
 
For the prestigious U.S. Women’s Amateur tournament, which was won by Dorothy Campbell, work had been done prior in an attempt to get the golf course up to competitive tournament standards.   A.W. Tillinghast wrote in his preview of the tournament in “American Golfer”; “New pits have been judiciously placed and the course requires more playing now.”
 
Max Behr, writing in 1914, compared Wilson to CB Macdonald at National and Herbert Leeds at Myopia, calling them all “dictators” who had studied golf course construction as no one prior.   It seems sensible to consider that no one accumulates that type of power within a golf club without significant tenure, and accompanying respect.   However long Wilson served as Chairman of Merion’s Green Committee, it is clear that none of his predecessors in the Philadelphia area were more painstaking in their approach - or more successful in their results.
 
Thanks!

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #247 on: July 05, 2013, 11:09:30 AM »
From Another Lurker:

#242 offers a good list of points by Moriarty for comparison to how Merion has recently presented its architecture history with Silverman's new book, A Centennial Celebration of the East Course.

David Moriarty's Reply #242 actually offers an excellent compilation of points that is a very good basis to compare what he thinks his 2008 IMO essay meant to Merion and others, with what it actually did mean to Merion, its historians and others. It may surprise some to know that there are 3-4 points in his compilation of points in #242 on which there really is agreement between his opinion and the opinion of Merion, its historians and others. But which of those points there's agreement on would probably also surprise most. On the rest of his points he thinks there has been agreement, acceptance and adoption by Merion, its historians and others (his 95%) there is virtually no agreement at all, as Merion and its historians believe those points have been logically refuted by factual evidence he did not have when he wrote his essay, and that was found and produced later by others.
 
 
David Moriarty has said a number of times he believes that material found later by others, particularly the material found later in the archives of MCC, supports all his points in his essay. Merion, its historians and others believe it directly refutes a number of his points in that essay. In essence this is both the power and benefit of what might be called a five year "peer review" analysis and critique period. That is what he asked for in his 2008 IMO essay and that is what he got.
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #248 on: July 05, 2013, 06:36:39 PM »
Like the false statements in the Golf Digest which provoked this thread, and like TEPaul's false claims in the early pages of this thread,  Mike Cirba's representations to Joe Perches above are also false.    That these guys can't seem to stop misrepresenting who figured what out and when says a lot about the character of each of Tom Paul, Wayne Morrison, and Mike Cirba.

These guys are like Flat Earthers who have finally admitted the Earth was round, only they actually have the audacity to try to take credit for just making the discovery themselves!

As I have explained repeatedly:
  1.   I produced the travel manifests, explained the correct reading of the Wilson chapter, and explained the correct timing of the Wilson trip in late 2006 and early 2007. Mike Cirba should know this because it precipitated his absurd multiyear quest to prove that the manifests were wrong, and/or to prove that there must have been an second, earlier trip.
  2.  As Mike Cirba knows, Tom Paul and Wayne did not "discover" the April 1912 Francis letter until well after I had figured all this stuff out.  According to TEPaul, they found the Francis letter in May of 2008, about a year and a half after I had already established the correct timing of the Wilson trip.  Here is Tom Paul in August of 2008 directly addressing the issue in response to a question from Tom MacWood about why he and Tom Paul had never mentioned the Francis/Oakley letter.   Tom MacWood:  "Wayne: The legend had Wilson travelling in 1910. How come you didn't mention this April 1912 letter?"
Mr. MacWood:
Because we were not aware of this letter until around May of this year. I went back to the USGA at that time to go through every single letter in those so-called "agronomy files" for the years 1911 and 1912 . . .

Got that?  They never mentioned the letter because they were unaware of the letter until around May 2008, long after I had explained the correct timing of the trip!  Yet Mike Cirba (and TEPaul) pretend that these guys had figured this out on their own "at some point" before I did.  They didn't.  And they admitted as much repeatedly.  The claim now that they figured it out first, "at some point" before I did, is outright false.  But that has never stopped Mike before, and I doubt it will now.  

Again, here is Tom Paul from the same date:    
As far as what Mr. Moriarty discovered about the history of Merion, he definitely did discover that Hugh Wilson really did go abroad in 1912 and may not have in 1910 before design and construction of the course began.
For that, we here and Merion too are more than willing to give him credit and we've all said so on here numerous times.

So even Tom Paul in 2008 admitted that it was me who figured all this stuff out (and this was long before Joe even found the Findlay letter.)  Yet now Mike Cirba and TEPaul are once again trying to rewrite history and take credit for things other people figured out. Same for Wayne in the GD article.  Sleazy.

3.   Mike Cirba wrote:  "Still, a bunch of us argued that this couldn't have been Wilson's first trip but we were wrong.  Finally, 3) Joe Bausch found an article written by Alex Findlay from June 1911 that made clear that this was indeed Wilson's first trip abroad for golf related purposes."

They were not only "wrong," this was never anything but an absurd wild goose chase, totally unsupported by anything but wishful thinking on their part.  There was NO REASONABLE BASIS for assuming a second trip into existence.  They just twisted a few old articles to their liking and insisted their must have been a second trip.  (It is much like what Cirba is trying to do now with his Wilson as Chair of the Green Committee in 1906 tangent.)

In fact, as I explained in beginning in late 2006 and early 2007, and as I explained further in my IMO in April 2008, there could not have been an earlier trip because  HUGH WILSON TOLD US AS MUCH IN HIS 1916 CHAPTER, when he referred to seeing the overseas courses "later," AFTER the NGLA trip.  Once I figured out that the NGLA trip did not occur until early 1911, I knew that his trip had to have occurred after this!  I then documented Hugh Wilson's presence in Philadelphia from then until after the course was seeded.  Plus, I thoroughly searched all the manifests and there was NO EVIDENCE of an earlier trip, nor was their any evidence of an earlier trip anywhere.  These guys just made up the whole idea of an earlier trip to try and preserve the Legend, but it was disproven by the record before they ever came up with it.  Just like Cirba's claim that Wilson was green chair in 1911.

Yet now Mike and friends have the nerve to claim that it was they who figured out that there was no earlier trip?  Because of the Findlay article they found one year after my IMO?   Absolutely preposterous.  All the Findlay Article added as new knowledge was a further description of his trip abroad, and further proof that MACDONALD WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE LAY OUT MANY OR ALL OF THE HOLES AT MERION.
===================================================================

As for Mike's latest iteration of his Green Committee theory, it has been covered before in the thread discussing Mike's IMO.  If Mike wants to discuss it further he should try to resurrect that thread, but I am not interested.

According to Merion's Minutes, Hugh Wilson still wasn't chair of the Green Committee in 1911, nor was he even on the Green Committee in 1911.  Mike's supposed proof that he must have been chair sometime before 1911 is about as attenuated as dozens of "proofs" about how Hugh Wilson must have traveled abroad in 1911 or before.  These old articles can be twisted to support just about any theory, no matter how unfounded.  Mike has proven that repeatedly . More importantly, it is entirely irrelevant as to design issues at Merion.  The whole theory is based on three false assumptions on Mike's part, all of which I addressed in the other thread.   Same old stuff and not worth discussing further.

==================================================

As for TEPaul's latest offering, I am not interested in that either.   Just more of the same.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 06:42:20 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion clarification
« Reply #249 on: July 05, 2013, 08:56:49 PM »
Patrick,

You are correct that much more is known because of the research of DM and TM.  Some of that extra knowledge is the result of extra research by others - for friendly reasons or, perhaps, otherwise.

BTW, I hope your reference to "Merionettes" does not include the membership-at-large or, even, those whom I consider to be "the people who matter".

Chip,

How could you NOT know who the "Merionettes" are ?

They're more rabid than the morons.


This long-running brouhaha is not even on the radar screen of 95+% (my estimate with no FACTS to support it) of the membership.  "The people who matter" are, in fact, interested in knowing whatever can be reasonably considered to be the probable truth, but they are not supportive of the antagonistic atmosphere - despite the resultant advancement of accurate history.

David Moriarty was descended upon, with vicious intent, by the "Merionettes" even before he published his "missing faces".
If the Merion membership is not supportive of the antagonistic atmosphere, they should be admonishing those residing in and near Montgomery and Deleware County and not those far removed.


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