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Tommy_Naccarato

Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« on: July 27, 2003, 04:24:10 PM »
Hearing John V's whining again for a season pass to Bandon that will never materialize, hence his inability to call me everyday of the year and tell me how great it is, and how Dan King and him enjoy the course everyday (Another one that would probably move up there permanently)......made me think of Bandon is a different light.

Bandon and Pacific are resort courses. Would that be the next step--high price homes and a truely private dunes course located in the Northeast area of the property?  What do you think and who would you have design it?

« Last Edit: July 27, 2003, 04:25:23 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2003, 04:40:10 PM »
Tommy, I beleive the only way the area can truly grow is to have a private course somewhere. This allows people to have 2nd or retirment homes. Few can afford to pay daily fee rates and play 5 times a week. I do hope there is a private course in the offering. It does not need to be the Cypress Point of the area. I think more of a MPCC would be perfect. In fact a parkland course might suffice. I do not think it is in the cards anytime soon though.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2003, 06:34:57 PM »
Tommy,

NO.

The market isn't there, neither are the demographics, the location is too remote, and the weather is questionable.

Bandon is a good golf destination because Mike Keiser has been able to blend the beautiful setting for golf with two excellent, but distinctly different golf courses.  While I can't read his mind, it appears that he's trying to make Bandon a golf Mecca, a destination made attractive by multiple golf experiences, wind, good accomodations, and good service.
If golfers on a golf trip can tolerate the weather in the UK they'll be more than happy with the weather at Bandon, plus, with Bandon, you don't have to go out of the country, you can stay in the United States, with all the benefits that we enjoy, and have fun playing excellent golf courses.

But, being able to support a private club may be a stretch.

It might be interesting to look at Friar's Head first and then revisit your question.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2003, 06:47:34 PM »
Tommy, I think JB is on track with the concept of retirement-second homes adjacent to a decent Bandon area course.  Not an upscale mansion district, but more of a get-away club.  That way, Keiser might be able to market some sort of membership perk like a certain number of free plays in the off season, or reduced fees in-season at the other two courses and make it up on the yearly membership fee at the private club.  It could be a win-win for members and ownership alike... and add a win for the area. 8)  With the greying of America, such retirement community private courses (even in so-called remote areas) might be attractive.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2003, 06:51:39 PM »
Pat,
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I thnk you might be under-estimating a lot of Northwesterner's who have made the Oregon Coast the place for their second or summer homes.

Less then an hour North you have Florence, and there are tons of Portlanders as well as people from Eugene that spend the weekends out there. You have a lot of retirees in these coastal communities that love Golf and do play it year round too.

Bandon Dunes has become a weekend getaway for a lot of them even during the winter, which I have to tell you, the Oregon Coast in the winter is cool yes, but really cool when it comes to atmosphere of surroundings. I will say this too, its proably a lot fairer for golf then Long Island during the dead of winter!


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2003, 06:52:16 PM »
Pat, Also, what would Friars Head have to do with Bandon?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2003, 06:53:24 PM »
Dick, That was exactly what I was getting at.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2003, 08:20:51 PM »
Tommy,

While the acquisition of land, and its cost has been taken care of, there is still the cost to design and build a golf course and a club house and possibly other buildings along with the operating expenses associated with running same, year round.  These costs would have to be recouped from the members ?  Staffing full time, for food and other services is also expensive, and would drive up the dues on an underutilized facility.

You have to ask yourself, how many prospective members want to pay initiation and dues at a club that they have no say in ?  A private club, with an owner other then the members running the show ?

You also have to ask yourself, will the club take in anybody who has the money, or will they be selective in their membership process ?

I mentioned Friar's Head because it has access to 15,000,000 people, sit's on a bluff overlooking a large body of water, has a superior golf course, and is in an area where people will build second or third homes.

I don't know what the population of Portland, Eugene, Florence are, but, I'd guess it's a few shy of 15,000,000.

I would think that Mike Keiser has the right idea in creating four (4) or five (5) distinct golf courses as an attraction for visiting golfers.  I think he's creating good accomodations for those visiting, and providing good food and other services,
all of which are profit centers to make the operation successful.

How long would he retain a private club if it lost money every year, and what would be the shelf life of those members subjected to increasing dues to meet escalating operational costs each and every year ?

The economy may be an impediment as well.

Realistically, I don't see a truely private club anytime in the near future.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2003, 08:23:04 PM »
Wasn't there a time when Palm Springs was "remote" and "too hot"?

Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2003, 08:26:37 PM »
Jeff Fortson,

Palm Springs is an hour or two or so from 20,000,000 people and has a spectacular winter climate that people, especially older people, love.

I didn't see a lot of pools and tennis courts in Bandon.

One look at the cars in the parking lot of the casino tells you all you need to know.

The comparison is absurd.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2003, 08:28:35 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2003, 08:39:12 PM »
Tommy- The 'next step' shouldn't be private. It should be a daily fee public, built minimalistically with a real eye on costs. Perhaps a course without any or at least a very minimal irrigation sytstem. The reason being that with the high $ fees Keiser is getting, there should be plenty of residual play (coatailing) and especially if it's 1/3 the cost and can create some of the same elements for fun, good to great golf. I'd bet the margins would be attractive, especially in this golf glut.

Dennis_Harwood

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2003, 08:44:44 PM »
Wasn't there a time when Palm Springs was "remote" and "too hot"?

Jeff F.

Jeff- About the same that Hollywood started making movies, Palm Springs was indentified as the place to spend the winter from LA, Hollywood and Beverly Hills-- New York had the Hamptons in the Summer, SoCal had Palm Springs in the winter--

Golf has exploded since the canels were built that brought water to the desert-- but long before then the housing with tennis courts and swimming pools brought the people--

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2003, 08:47:42 PM »
Bandon has one thing going for it, great golf. However, it has everything else against it. Weather, Weather, Weather...people will put up with it for 5 days, not 5 months for a second home.

Old people like me tighten up in the cold, wind and rain.

Location, Location, Location...this place is really, really hard to get to and from.

Movies, restaurants, shopping= zero, o, zero

No bank in its right mind would finance a real estate community and a high end private course.

But then again, I've put my foot in my wouth before.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2003, 11:09:18 PM »
I had the pleasure of stopping in at Bandon on Thursday on my way back from Australia.  They will have an announcement about their next course on August 1.

Yes, I do know who it will be, but I won't spoil the announcement.  It is to be the third resort course.

As for a private course, I don't think they are going to do it anytime soon, or at least Mike Keiser isn't likely to.  One of the reasons we stopped presses on The Sheep Ranch was precisely because Mike thought the rumors of a private course next to the resort would upset resort guests paying top dollar.  I don't think he's changed his mind on that topic yet.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2003, 11:19:45 PM »
Welcome back Tom.

I would like everyne to notice how I say "Is" because I don't neccessarily think it needs one, but it is something to at least speculate about! :)

However, I do think there is going to be a time when frequent visitors of Bandon  are going to tire of not being able to get a tee time on one of the two, soon to be three golf courses. The resort surely will expand in rooms to support those courses, and maybe, just maybe a private would be the answer.

We'll see!

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2003, 11:15:19 AM »
pat, there is alot of difference in land costs and labor at Friers Head than southern Oregon. It does not take multi 6 figure fees to make a club work in that fact situation. that is not a good analogy..

Mike Erdmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2003, 12:04:31 PM »
Sorry guys, but Pat's completely right on this one.  Bandon has world class golf, but there are too many factors stacked against it to warrant a private course.  The winters are horribly wet and stormy most of the time, and the summers are windy and rarely get above 75 degrees.  I've had family and friends that live/have lived at the coast, and almost universally they hate the weather.  I think most people would choose Bend over Bandon for a vacation home just because of weather alone.

Tommy, you're right that plenty of people have vacation homes at the Oregon coast, but those are almost all up north from Newport to Astoria, where they are much closer to the population centers of Portland, Salem & Eugene.  Having a beach house is great when you can drive there in an hour or 90 minutes, but Bandon is just too far of a drive (4 hours from Portland) to draw that many people.

I think the concept of rental vacation homes would work at Bandon, similar to the resorts in Central Oregon for those familiar with that area.  LOTS of people would happily rent a house for a week or so and play golf the entire time.  But I just don't see a private club penciling out there at all.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2003, 12:31:23 PM »
Mike, Your wrong!:)

Actually I'm joking, Once again, I'm asking the question, not stating a belief. But I want you to consdier somehting. Taking a guess, I would say at least a 85% portion of the people in the Palm Desert utilize their places as SECOND clubs. Their not there year round. Now I'm not trying to say picture a Coachella-like populating of Bandon, but picture something n a more tasteful level. People going there to their second homes, and thenhaving th Bandon complexes there not unlike Pinehurst with several options to play, including a private one.

ONce again, I'm not advocating. I'm asking what if?

ForkaB

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2003, 12:56:05 PM »
Gentlemen

If it is possible to build a high end, exclusive private club in Mullen, Nebraska, it is more than possible to do it in the relatively accessible environs of Bandon, Oregon.

I personally hope it does not happen.  The world of golf needs more inclusion and less privacy, particularly from such intelligent developers as Keiser.  If I were he, I'd wonder how his current cash cow would be affected if there were a "them and us" private facility up there that the punters could look at, but not touch.

Mike Erdmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2003, 01:06:09 PM »
Tommy, I'll confess that I've never been to the Palm Desert area so I really know nothing about it, but am I right in guessing that most of the people there with second homes are driving over from L.A. and the rest of SoCal?  I just see Bandon as being too far away and too inaccessible from population centers to make a private course viable.  

And think of it this way - how many of us guys could convince our spouse to buy a second home at Bandon so we could play golf?  Unless your spouse is a golf nut too, she ain't gonna be too excited about the crappy weather and the complete lack of anything else to do.  Talking her into a second home in Palm Desert is one thing, Bandon might be just a wee bit tougher!    ;)

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2003, 01:13:44 PM »
 Friedman's Sheep Ranch, which does not exist, is already underway as a private venue.  Isn't it?  Isn't your question already being put to the test? Or is it intended to be just for him and his buddies?  I know that it's not affiliated with Keiser's complex anymore but the activities of one must effect some decisions of the other.  
  I personally would like to see this course accessible to people like me(!) and be something like what Adam was talking about;  very affordable, accessible golf.   If only it existed.
 
   I don't know Mr. Kaiser but from what I've heard and read, I think he's more interested in building great golf courses for golf lovers than building a retirement community.

 And Mike Erdmann is right about vacation home options and most would rather choose Central Oregon, ie Sisters, Bend, Redmond, to rest and relax.    I was just there and WOW! the castles they are building are stupifying.   The new Pronghorn (Nicklaus/Fazio 36) lots just north of the Bend airport are selling briskly at extreme prices.  I tried to get in to see but with the SWAT teams repelling and gestapo guards glaring, I was sort of put off.  (My ninja outfit was at the cleaners.)    

 
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2003, 01:15:36 PM »
Tommy,

People with second homes need activities.  The Palm Desert has art, terrific restaurants, culture, vast movie theaters, world class shopping, tons of lesbians  ;D, etc.  Bandon has .... A cheesy casino and a teeth optional downtown bar.  I do not believe Bandon could support the high-end community necessary for a successful private club.  On top of those challenges, the public golf is so good that private is even more challenging.

Here is a corollary.  Look at Querencia in Los Cabos.  Los Cabos has everything you would want for a private club.  In addition, the course is wonderful.  They struggle for membership though because the public is so good and available.  Here is quick math.  Public golf in Los Cabos averages $180 per round.  Private fees (Caddie, cart, etc) average $30.  You save $150 per round being a member.  Dues are $400 per month - $4,800 per year.  At 32 rounds per year (A lot for a second home) you would break even.  Factor in a $60,000 downstroke, and you would save money on your 400th round in excess of 32 a year.  If you played 60 rounds a year (Almost unheard-of for a second club, the math would make sense in 15 years ((And I am not factoring in the time value of money))).  Where private clubs work in resort areas are if the public golf is substandard so that you need private golf to enjoy or where there is a ton to do (Palm Desert, Northern Michigan, etc.) so people stay up for 3 months or more.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2003, 01:18:22 PM »
Tiger Bernhardt,

There was no land cost at Friar's Head.

ForkaB

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2003, 01:23:28 PM »
Pat

There has not been a "no cost" land deal since Adam took an option on a few acres in the garden of Eden........

DMoriarty

Re:Is Bandon In Line For A Truely Exclusive Private Course?
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2003, 01:37:00 PM »
Unless you guys know something I don't, Rich hit on the valid comparison-- Sand Hills.  Hard to find a spot more isolated (fly to Denver and drive and drive and drive), and they the are not open at all in the winters.  

Are there many other activities in Mullen?   Are there 20 million people nearby?    

Patrick, what can you tell me about the cars parked in lots around Mullen as compared to the casino lot in Bandon?  How about the pools and tennis courts in Mullen?  

A private club in Bandon would have the added benefit of being right next to at least two additional and accessible golf options.

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