[Thomas Dai]

Perhaps on all 18th holes the 150 yd markers should be placed not 150 yds from the center of the green but 150 yds from the clubhouse bar? Ho, ho, ho!

Al the best.

[Sean_A]

Unlike Sean, I like the conveniences of the modern world where I can have a choice of a Big Mac, tofu, or a home-packed bologna sandwich with relative ease.  

I'm not sure what bologna sandwiches has to do with yardage markers - must be Texan logic.

Ciao

About as much as lamenting about McDs.  Options, my friend.  I like more, not fewer.  I wouldn't think about denying others distance markers or devices because I prefer to rely solely on my wits.  For all the crap facing this world, I am sure glad I live in these times, Bushnell, Garmin,  bologna sandwiches and otherwise.

I don't recall trying to stop anyone from using a laser or mega driver.  Options are great.  Don't, however, bitch about mediocre architecture. It doesn't make much sense to me to have highly paid guys design courses only to grab every device off the shelf in the hope of mitigating their skills, but yes, options are great.

Ciao  

[Patrick_Mucci]

If knowing how far from the hole really detracts that much from your enjoyment of the game, well I feel for your loss. But I just can't see the appeal, myself.

Brent, it's how you acquire the knowledge that's the issue.
If golf is deemed an athletic event/pursuit, shouldn't the golfer's eye determine the distance, absent artificial aids.
Does a quarterback use his visual acuity to determine how much arc and zip to put into the ball ?
Ditto basketball players and soccer players when making a pass or taking a shot.
Why should golfers have artificial aids.

There are some who look at golf as a non-athletic pursuit, why lend credence to that premise by replacing visual judgement with artificial aids ?

Then again, I'm a person who would rather play one course five times than five courses once. To me the pleasurable part of golf is knowing exactly what I need to do, having a clear mental image of where I want the ball to land and how it will bounce or roll from there and then attempting the shot I'm imagining.

Yes, but you're taking the lazy way out.
You're replacing the athletic portion of judging distance with an artificial device, making the game less visual, less athletic.

Once I've played a given hole quite a few times or once I've played it to exactly the same hole location even two or three times, any mystery about "dead ground" or "visual deception" or those other beard-puller's pleasures are pretty much out the window.

Then you don't need artificial range finders, yet you use them.

I had a shot yesterday with 104 yards to the hole. I knew the distance, I knew that anything more than 8 yards past the flag would bounce over the green, dead. I knew that anything more than 5 yards short would fail to stay on the upper tier and would end up rolling 30, 40, 50 feet away leaving a tough 2-putt. I opted for playing a 100-yard shot and it came up just short, paused for a second, then slowly trickled all the way back to the front of the green.

At 100 yards, shouldn't feel and shot variable come into play ?
I've seen guys take out their laser range finders at 20 yards.
If I wasn't a guest I would have said something, there and then.
I did mention it at the end of the round.
It's absurd, guys are becoming so dependent upon artificial aids that it's ridiculous.

How would that experience have been improved if instead of knowing that it was 104 to the hole I just eyeballed it and knew it was somewhere between 98 and 110 yards? I prefer knowing that if I can land a pitching wedge shot in that narrow little window I'll have a makeable birdie putt and if I miss that known window I may not make par. If I did not know the exact distance the prudent play would have been 20 feet left of the hole, take plenty of club and play for a long putt from the back fringe. Without knowing the distance my chances of a makeable birdie putt go from 1-in-4 to maybe 1-in10 or 1-in-20 just because there's not just a perfect shot required but a perfect shot and a perfect guess as to distance.

The answer is simple.
It depends upon your "GOLFING IQ"  
From 104 yards, if you can't figure out the shot, you stink.  Especially at a course that you're very familiar with.

In the end, it could down to whether guessing distances is a pleasurable pastime. As I said, if you really get off on guessing distances then I hope you're able to somehow insulate yourself from the near-ubiquitous yardage information that's a normative part of the game today. But it's a niche desire that doesn't necessarily get catered to in every round of golf.

For years, all we ever heard was that introducing 100, 150, 200 and 250 yard markers, marked sprinkler heads and laser range finders would speed up play, and yet, just the opposite has happened, play is slower today than it was 50 years ago.  In fact, it's beyond slow, it's excruciatingly slow.

I had an argument with a club President who wanted to put colored flags on the flagstick to signify front, back or middle hole locations.
On one hole, a 186 yard par 3, I asked him "why" that information was important to him.
He said that it helped him with club selection.
So, I asked him, what percentage of the time did he hit the green.
He said, "about 85 % of the time"
My first response was to offer him a wager on his 85 %.
Then I asked him, if he hit the center of the green every time, how long would his longest putt be.
He said, about 20 feet.  So, I said, then why wouldn't you aim for the center of the green every time you play the hole.
I also reminded him of the PGA Tour GIR stats.

If the huge majority of golfers hit their approaches short and to the right, what good is a range finder if you don't take enough club ?

Wouldn't you be better off knowing that you have to hit a 5-iron to reach the green from the DZ, versus knowing it's 170 from the DZ to the center of the green, and then trying to force a 6-iron ?

I'm certainly not going to disadvantage myself when playing for Silver, Green or Bragging rights, but permitting aids to determine distance, be they markers or range finders erodes the athletic elements of the game.  And, they haven't speeded up the game, they've slowed it down.

How long before Al Czervik's putter becomes a reality ?

 

[C. Squier]

Pat, perhaps the introduction of yardages on golf courses have slowed the game down.  However, there is plenty of evidence that rangefinders have sped the game up....there have been many instances on GCA where tournament directors have said that the introduction of legal rangefinders have sped up rounds from the past. 

Why is it hard to accept that players are going to insist on getting this information?  After accepting this, rangefinders provide the quickest way. 

[Brent Hutto]

Jesus, where to start.

I never said golf was an "athletic event/pursuit". Straw man.

If you think you'll get anywhere by characterizing me as "lazy" you need to come up with something better. Of course I'm 'lazy" or else I would not spend 10-15 hours a week out on a golf course instead of working or somehow trying to make the world a better place.

I can figure out how to hit a 104 yard shot. I can also figure out how to hit a 98 yard one and a 110 yard one. I'm just using the laser to find out which one I need on this particular hole, today.

How do you think play will be speeded up or your club president's play will be improved by removing the colored flags? You assume the conclusion you desire (that all the flags should be white) and then demand that affirmative proof of benefit be given for any alternative. That's another form of straw man argument.

If you know the distance then don't take enough club then you'll miss the green. So I guess you don't need a rangefinder but you need a swing coach and a caddie there to make you hit the right shot, is that it? Once again, how does NOT knowing the distance help this mythical "did not take enough club" hacker? A range finder is no good at all if you refuse to hit the proper club for the shot. I'm suggesting that one might want to do a) know the distance and b) hit the right club.

As for this non-sequitur, I can't even parse what you're trying to get at...

Wouldn't you be better off knowing that you have to hit a 5-iron to reach the green from the DZ, versus knowing it's 170 from the DZ to the center of the green, and then trying to force a 6-iron ?

What the hell are you on about? Are you back to that caddie forcing a 5-iron into your hands so you can't hit the 6? By what mechanism does not knowing how far I am from the green going to make me hit an iron I don't want to hit?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, perhaps the introduction of yardages on golf courses have slowed the game down.  However, there is plenty of evidence that rangefinders have sped the game up....there have been many instances on GCA where tournament directors have said that the introduction of legal rangefinders have sped up rounds from the past. 

Could you cite some specifics, because my experience has been that rounds take far longer today, than they did 50 years ago.

Why is it hard to accept that players are going to insist on getting this information? 


Have you ever played Pine Valley or Merion ?
If so, you know that you won't find any yardage indicators in the fairways/sprinkler heads/flanks.

And yet, the game is played at a brisk pace, despite the penal nature of both courses.

Let a player insist as much as he wants, about distance, size of the hole or anything else that bothers him.
If the rules don't permit it, either play away or take up another sport.
Again, the emphasis on "SCORE" and the deemphasis on match play is one of the culprits.

After accepting this, rangefinders provide the quickest way. 

The quickest way is to analyze your shot during the long walk to your ball, make a final determination when you get to your ball, pick your club and fire away.

I recently played in an event that permitted range finders.
We played in twosomes.
It took us four hours and twelve minutes.
We waited on EVERY SHOT.
There's NO EXCUSE for slow play and there's NO EXCUSE for twosomes taking more than three (3) hours.

[Brent Hutto]

So I was right, we're back to the caddie handing you a club stuff.

Elitist self-congratulatory hoo-rah.

P.S. By the way, my rangefinder is the kind that uses prisms on the flagstick. it does not have to be aimed precisely and I routinely shoot my yardages while still walking and have it back in the golf bag before I reach the ball. It doesn't slow me down because I'm not a slow player. Like anything else, slow players will find a way to be slow with or without any given piece of equipment.

[David Davis]

Pat,

A 3 hour twosome doesn't exist at my club unless you are jogging (or playing the ladies tees) so I'd love to invite you over to prove that one. I'll buy the drinks. No carts aloud.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jesus, where to start.

I never said golf was an "athletic event/pursuit". Straw man.

If you think you'll get anywhere by characterizing me as "lazy" you need to come up with something better. Of course I'm 'lazy" or else I would not spend 10-15 hours a week out on a golf course instead of working or somehow trying to make the world a better place.

I can figure out how to hit a 104 yard shot. I can also figure out how to hit a 98 yard one and a 110 yard one. I'm just using the laser to find out which one I need on this particular hole, today.

What's your handicap ?

How do you think play will be speeded up or your club president's play will be improved by removing the colored flags?

Simple, if there's one item on a menu, it doesn't take long to order does it ?
Very few decisions to make.
Once you introduce additional variables, more decisions need to be made, ergo, more time is consumed


You assume the conclusion you desire (that all the flags should be white) and then demand that affirmative proof of benefit be given for any alternative. That's another form of straw man argument.

Not at all.
55+ years of observation form a pretty solid data base.
First, one has to ask, how many golfers can reach the green.
On a 186 yard par 3 that's slightly uphill and into a prevailing breeze from the west, about 10 %.
So what difference does is make as to what color the flag is, or where the flag is.
The objective is beyond their ability, the information is useless.
And, in addition, because the green is sloped from high back to low front, the location of the hole is obvious to all but those with uncorrected nearsightedness.

If you know the distance then don't take enough club then you'll miss the green. So I guess you don't need a rangefinder but you need a swing coach and a caddie there to make you hit the right shot, is that it?

It's my understanding, from years of caddying and from years of using a caddy, that one of the caddy's primary roles is club selection.

Once again, how does NOT knowing the distance help this mythical "did not take enough club" hacker?

What, are you playing after midnight, without a scorecard ?
Each hole has a marker that provides distance from that marker to the center of the green.
On a par 3, what's it going to be off by, six inches ?

A range finder is no good at all if you refuse to hit the proper club for the shot.

It's not a question of "refusal", rather judgement.  That's why caddies assist players with their club selection.

I'm suggesting that one might want to do a) know the distance and b) hit the right club.

How can you not know the distance, the hole is 186 yards from the marker to the center of the green.
As to hitting the "right" club, that's a matter of judgement and choice.

As for this non-sequitur, I can't even parse what you're trying to get at...

OK, Sorry if it's over your head.
I'll try to dumb it down for you.

Wouldn't you be better off knowing that you have to hit a 5-iron to reach the green from the DZ, versus knowing it's 170 from the DZ to the center of the green, and then trying to force a 6-iron ?

What the hell are you on about? Are you back to that caddie forcing a 5-iron into your hands so you can't hit the 6? By what mechanism does not knowing how far I am from the green going to make me hit an iron I don't want to hit?

One aspect of it is called "EGO".
Without knowing the yardage, but knowing that I always hit five iron from this location, I'm going to hit five iron unless unusual circumstances exist.
(wind, cold, rain or, I'm tired)
But, if you know the precise yardage, "ego" tends to make you take less club.
That's one of the inherent aspects of the game, golfers want to hit it further and typically take less club and try to force or muscle the ball to the required distance, often failing in that task.

Case in point.
The 12th hole at a course I'm very familiar with is a nice, very slighly uphill hole.
I've been playing this course for 55+ years.
I'm playing with a friend who's been playing it for 40 years.
He gets a laser finder.
We're playing # 12, he hits a good drive into the DZ, lasers the distance to the hole and says to me,  "You know, this hole is shorter than you think.
It's only X yards from here.  He proceeds to take less club than he usually does and ends up short of the green.  The hole is very slighly uphill, but, it is subject to prevailing winds from the west, even mild breezes.  So, his reliance on yardage, per his laser gun, did him in.  Had he just hit the same  club that he typically hits from the DZ, he would have been on the green.

Conversely, since most golfers don't strike the ball with precision, most often miss the sweet spot resulting in less distance.
I can't tell you how many times, golfers focused purely on distance, forget about the consequences of a missed shot and don't allow for margins when using laser guns.   If they'd focus on hitting to the center of the green, they'd be far better off, but, the modern day golfer has to have his range finder, he has to know exactly where the hole is cut.  So tell me, has this newly acquired knowledge dropped everyone's handicap by five shots ?   By three shots ?     By one shot ?    IF NOT, what's it's purpose ?  It certainly hasn't sped up the game.

[Patrick_Mucci]

So I was right, we're back to the caddie handing you a club stuff.

That's what caddies are for, to assist you in playing.
They determine yardage, help with club selection and read putts.
I don't know if you've noticed them when you watch the PGA Tour each week, but, they're there.

They're also at clubs that encourage walking and provide employment to a broad spectrum of individuals

Elitist self-congratulatory hoo-rah.

It's got nothing to do with being an elitist.
That's your own insecurity.

P.S. By the way, my rangefinder is the kind that uses prisms on the flagstick. it does not have to be aimed precisely and I routinely shoot my yardages while still walking and have it back in the golf bag before I reach the ball.

Oh, so when you're 50 yards from your ball, you're shooting the flagstick.
You must be fun to play with.
Give me a break.
What moron shoots yardages from distances far removed from his ball ?


It doesn't slow me down because I'm not a slow player.

Oh, so you can hold your hands steady, so steady that while you're walking, 50, 40, 30 and 20 yards from your ball, you can shoot distances at a narrow flagstick without having to stop to steady yourself and sight the reflectors on the flagstick.

Please, spare us the nonsense.

Again, what's your handicap ?

Like anything else, slow players will find a way to be slow with or without any given piece of equipment.

Slow players will only get slower when you give them something else to be slow about.

[Brent Hutto]

Once again, every conversation with you comes back around to your total inability to even conceive that there's a world outside of your insular little community of caddies and the oh-so-enlightened country-club golfers who employ them. If the best rejoinder to use of distance aids you can muster is basically "Why do you need a laser when your caddie will gladly figure the yardage, give you the club and hold your dick for you while he's at it?" then bugger off. It's beyond lame.

[C. Squier]

Could you cite some specifics, because my experience has been that rounds take far longer today, than they did 50 years ago.[/size][/color]

I agreed that yardage markers have slowed down play.  However, I believe rangefinders speed up play when the alternative is pacing off yardages.  A bounce off of the slow play trough. Perhaps not having ANY data available would allow golf to go back to how fast it was, however I don't think that is a realistic option to look forward to.  Reversing decades of yardage use would be very hard to do. I will attempt to find past threads from guys who have seen tournament rounds speed up when allowing rangefinders later tonight.

Have you ever played Pine Valley or Merion ? If so, you know that you won't find any yardage indicators in the fairways/sprinkler heads/flanks.

Yes, not as often as you though....but enough to know their yardage books have numbers in them.  So does Friars Head, to refer to your previous post. But I'm sure you're aware of that too    Point is, just b/c the numbers aren't ON the heads, doesn't mean the heads aren't marked.  In a book or on a head, its semantics.

And yet, the game is played at a brisk pace, despite the penal nature of both courses.

In my experience, a gentle reminder from the member host at the beginning of the round that sub 4 hour rounds are not just the norm, but absolutely expected is the reason for that.  I've found the 4 person cart roaming around Brookline has a great affect on guest's slow play psychology as well. 

Let a player insist as much as he wants, about distance, size of the hole or anything else that bothers him.
If the rules don't permit it, either play away or take up another sport.

I will not debate you on what's right and wrong about needing to know distance.  However, I will tell you that my generation has grown up knowing distances. Yours didn't.  As difficult as it may be for yours to accept rangefinders, it may be for mine to allow their disappearance.  I dislike using differences in age as an easy solution to solve a complex problem, but it may be appropriate in this case. 

Again, the emphasis on "SCORE" and the deemphasis on match play is one of the culprits.[/size][/color]

Pretty sure match play requires you to score better than your opponent. As long as the goal is to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible, golfers will likely choose to have as much information as possible.  Information overload?  That's up for debate, I'll grant...a rangefinder will be very useful to a scratch, while maybe not so much for a 25.

The quickest way is to analyze your shot during the long walk to your ball, make a final determination when you get to your ball, pick your club and fire away.

I recently played in an event that permitted range finders.
We played in twosomes.
It took us four hours and twelve minutes.
We waited on EVERY SHOT.
There's NO EXCUSE for slow play and there's NO EXCUSE for twosomes taking more than three (3) hours.

I totally agree that's too long. But I doubt rangefinders were the sole reason for the slow play.  The time it takes to zap yardages over the course of the entire round may be equal to what one's entire putting routine on just one or two holes. 

To reverse the ageism in my post, I'll concede I have no idea how I screwed up your green print 

[SL_Solow]

I am not quite as old as Pat (who is?) but I can remember as a boy when commentators made reference to Nicklaus having charted courses for yardage as opposed to playing by eye. They thought that this was a major development.  Soon everyone was doing it.  Whether it really helped or whether they were just doing it becuase they thought it was necessary to play like Jack (analogus to the widespread use of heroin by jazz musicians who posited that it was the heroin that made Charlie Parker the genius that he was and were proved wrong), the fact is, it became standard operating procedure.  I agree that it helped slow the game down as it added one more step in shot preparation.  But a lot of things slowed the game down at the pro level which trickled down to the amateurs who watched on tv.

Regardless, unless the governing bodies decide to change the rules, we are all shouting into the wind.  Used properly, the devices take no longer than pacing off yardages from sprinkler heads or other fixed reference points.  The key is proper usage, being ready to play when it is your turn and avoiding ridiculous pre-shot routines.  For those who prefer to play by eye, each to his own.

As for Pat's friend, who having played his home course many times  decided to hit less club than usual from a given spot because the rangefinder gave him a "short " yardage on a shot uphill into the wind, Pat should make him the guest of honor at his next "morons" dinner.  Information is a great thing but in the end if the user is unable to make intelligent use of it, nothing will help.


That really is the point of this discussion.  Walking off a yardage, having a range finder, using a caddy or simply knowing a course so well that you understand the shot all achieve the same objective and if a player moves promptly, the challenges and the results should equalize.  Only when playing a strange course without a caddy should the "eyeball" method require a different test.

[Thomas Dai]

To take what has become a pace of play debate away slightly from the use of distance aids and yardages books etc, I watched the 'World' Matchplay final from Bulgaria over the weekend. On one hole Jaydee walked, well it must have been a good 80 yds from his ball up to the hole and then back to his ball again. This took ages and really slowed down play. This is the kind of thing I've seen Tour Pros do numerous times. I've also seen it in the amateur game and sometimes not even in competitions, and boy, it doesn't half slow up play and peeve people playing behind off as well as setting a poor example to youngsters and those new to the game.

How about a new rule of golf something along the the lines of 'neither the player nor his caddie shall proceed in front of the players ball at any stage in the playing of a hole except when the ball lies on the putting surface'. This is first draft/outline wording only, and would need tidying up a bit to take into consideration circumstances like looking for lost balls and the level penalty to be imposed for a breach of the rule (eg kick in the nuts, hanging, thrown into a pit full of lions etc).

Do you reckon the instigation of such a rule would improve the pace of play? Or should we be less polite and adopt the approach of a bloke I used to play with who when confronted with slow play would walk up close behind the offending group and bellow at the top of his very loud voice "get a bloody move on or we're gonna play right over you!". His approach never failed, but then again he was a pretty big bloke!

All the best

PS - didn't Rory Sabatini walk on past Ben Crane at a Pro tournament a couple of years ago? Anyone happen to know if RS got fined or handed a bonus?

[Mark Smolens]

I can cite to no studies or empirical scientific data, but I've been playing in Chicago District better ball events for about 14 years now. In the beginning rangefinders and distance aids were verboten, and 6 hour rounds were the expected norm. Several years in they started allowing the range finders, and the pace of play, while not spectacular, is at least usually around an acceptable just over four hours.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Once again, every conversation with you comes back around to your total inability to even conceive that there's a world outside of your insular little community of caddies and the oh-so-enlightened country-club golfers who employ them.

I can assure you that the "insular little community" you reference extends far, far beyond your ability to comprehend.

If the best rejoinder to use of distance aids you can muster is basically

That's not the best rejoinder, just one of many.

You indicated that you were virtually helpless from a distance of 104 and needed your crutch to give you any chance of succeeding with your shot.

I've asked you, several times, "what's your handicap ?"  Why can't you answer that simple question ?

You indicated that you prefer playing one course five times rather than playing five courses one time, conveying intimate knowledge of the golf course, yet, you need to rely on your range finder.

Then, you told us that you don't wait until you reach your ball to put your range finder to use, that you start shooting the distance, removed from your ball, as you're walking toward your ball.  Just curious as how you inventory the readings when you're 50, 40, 30, 20 and 10 yards from your ball, and justify yet another shoot with your range finder when you finally reach your ball ?

"Why do you need a laser when your caddie will gladly figure the yardage, give you the club and hold your dick for you while he's at it?" then bugger off. It's beyond lame.

Not at all.
But, since caddies are more familiar with a course that people are playing for the first time, it would be foolish to ignore their advice.

Have you noticed that the touring pros employ caddies.

For the record, what's your handicap ?

[Scott Warren]

Pat, maybe it would help to read what other people post every now and then. Brent said he was an 18-handicap in post #32.

[BHoover]

I have an honest question for the group...how common are distance aids outside the USA? Do folks in the UK, Australia, Europe, Asia, etc use lasers, gps or other aids?

[Colin Macqueen]

Brian,
In my neck of the woods (Brisbane, Australia) they are in use. Much more so in the last 2-3 years I think as the quality re technology has improved and the prices have tumbled. There will be no going back I'm sure.
I have not seen any of my compatriots game improve with the use of the gadget ..... rather one seems to draw attention to oneself and then hit a shot which has no relevance or bearing (for want of a better word!) on the aforementioned information. Neither have I seen any increase in the pace of play, not that I want to hurry unduly, which is often posited as a benefit of this spawn of the devil!

They don't really bother me at all unless the information is imparted without being solicited and as I said before, in Oz, the user tends to do his/her own thing unless you ask them for the info.

Cheers Colin

[Scott Warren]

1000km south of Colin, the story is much the same in Sydney re: use. It's normal that a group of four will have at least 2-3 GPS or laser devices.

I bought one last year about the same time I took 2hrs worth of lessons (first lessons I ever had) and improved from a 7-8hcp to a 4-5 fairly rapidly.

It's likely that was more to do with the lessons than the laser, but it has definitely proved helpful and helped me to feel more confident about a shot as I stand over the ball. Especially on 40-90m shots.

[BHoover]

If used properly, I really believe a laser or gps can be used to speed up play.

[Brent Hutto]

Arguing with Mucci is like trying to argue with a broken clock...except he isn't even right twice a day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, maybe it would help to read what other people post every now and then. Brent said he was an 18-handicap in post #32.

So, on his home course, which he plays most frequently, as an 18 handicap, he needs a range finder to determine distance ?  ? ?

Is his short term memory so poor that he can't remember how he played from day to day ?

Oh, that's right, this is an 18 handicap that needs a range finder from 104 yards, because he's so precise with his game that a 5 or 8 yard error might ruin his score on that hole.

I can only conclude, with his precision accuracy, that he must be a really bad putter.
How else can you explain that 18 handicap with his incredible ball striking accuracy ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

A 3 hour twosome doesn't exist at my club unless you are jogging (or playing the ladies tees)

Is that because of the culture of your club ?

What is/are the impediment/s that cause/s slow play to be prevalent at your club ?

so I'd love to invite you over to prove that one.
I'll buy the drinks. No carts aloud.


I'm available

[Patrick_Mucci]

Could you cite some specifics, because my experience has been that rounds take far longer today, than they did 50 years ago.[/size][/color]

I agreed that yardage markers have slowed down play. 
However, I believe rangefinders speed up play when the alternative is pacing off yardages. 

That's an alternative that predisposes the answer

A bounce off of the slow play trough. Perhaps not having ANY data available would allow golf to go back to how fast it was, however I don't think that is a realistic option to look forward to.  Reversing decades of yardage use would be very hard to do. I will attempt to find past threads from guys who have seen tournament rounds speed up when allowing rangefinders later tonight.

I don't disagree, but the advent of range finders hasn't gotten the game to 3.5 hours for a foursome, and that should be the maximum

Have you ever played Pine Valley or Merion ? If so, you know that you won't find any yardage indicators in the fairways/sprinkler heads/flanks.

Yes, not as often as you though....but enough to know their yardage books have numbers in them.  So does Friars Head, to refer to your previous post. But I'm sure you're aware of that too    Point is, just b/c the numbers aren't ON the heads, doesn't mean the heads aren't marked.  In a book or on a head, its semantics.

The yardage books are recent additions.
Play moved at a brisk pace prior to their availability

And yet, the game is played at a brisk pace, despite the penal nature of both courses.

In my experience, a gentle reminder from the member host at the beginning of the round that sub 4 hour rounds are not just the norm, but absolutely expected is the reason for that. 

Then you're admitting that slow play is a selfish, self serving byproduct, easily corrected with the proper carrot and stick.

If you can get a foursome around Pine Valley in under four hours, and yes Brent, Pine Valley mandates caddies, then you can get a foursome around in less than four hours everywhere

I've found the 4 person cart roaming around Brookline has a great affect on guest's slow play psychology as well. 

Then we agree.   Severe consequences are a great and effective motivator for having rounds played in under 4 hours

Let a player insist as much as he wants, about distance, size of the hole or anything else that bothers him.
If the rules don't permit it, either play away or take up another sport.

I will not debate you on what's right and wrong about needing to know distance.  However, I will tell you that my generation has grown up knowing distances. Yours didn't.  As difficult as it may be for yours to accept rangefinders, it may be for mine to allow their disappearance.  I dislike using differences in age as an easy solution to solve a complex problem, but it may be appropriate in this case. 

It's not about age, it's about the "me" generation and their selfish perspective.
3.5 hour rounds should be the norm.
There's no impediment, inherent in the game, preventing them.
And, as you state, when your generation is politely reminded about pace of play at one of the most difficult courses in the world, miraculously, they're able to play in under 4 hours.
So why can't that be the norm ?
Because like 18 handicap Brent, they want to take their time dialing in the yardage on their home course from a point 2 yards removed from where he was yesterday on the par 3's

Again, the emphasis on "SCORE" and the deemphasis on match play is one of the culprits.[/size][/color]

Pretty sure match play requires you to score better than your opponent. As long as the goal is to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible, golfers will likely choose to have as much information as possible.  Information overload?  That's up for debate, I'll grant...a rangefinder will be very useful to a scratch, while maybe not so much for a 25.

If your opponent is OB or in the water, precise yardage to the flag is almost irrelevant.
All you have to do is win the hole.

On your home course, which is where the great majority of golf is played, you should know the yardages by heart, and not need any range finders, especially as you point out, if you're a high handicap

The quickest way is to analyze your shot during the long walk to your ball, make a final determination when you get to your ball, pick your club and fire away.

I recently played in an event that permitted range finders.
We played in twosomes.
It took us four hours and twelve minutes.
We waited on EVERY SHOT.
There's NO EXCUSE for slow play and there's NO EXCUSE for twosomes taking more than three (3) hours.

I totally agree that's too long. But I doubt rangefinders were the sole reason for the slow play.  The time it takes to zap yardages over the course of the entire round may be equal to what one's entire putting routine on just one or two holes. 

Slow play is a culture, a mindset, and it's easily corrected if the will to correct it is there

To reverse the ageism in my post, I'll concede I have no idea how I screwed up your green print 


I thought the younger generation was supposed to be computer savy ?

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