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Mac Plumart

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2013, 06:33:55 PM »
Is South Africa a must? Why or why not?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Scott Warren

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2013, 12:46:16 AM »
Mac,

South Africa is a must for non-golf reasons, but from my golf, which has been limited thus far to Durban and surrounds, I would say no, not a "must".

Durban CC is a hell of a lot of fun and really interesting to see such extreme land used so well in a traditional sense, and I also thought highly of some of the lesser courses, so well worth doing in my book, despite not being a must.

But having not played Humewood, East London etc, perhaps there is more there than I am giving the country credit for.

Dave McCollum

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2013, 04:53:03 AM »
Scotland’s sunrise round may be history at the more well-known links, but there is a fairly satisfying alternative for you golf crazies.  My experience is dated—perhaps seven years old—yet, I imagine still possible and worthy of inclusion on this bucket-list thread:  If the weather is favorable, leave your sticks at home and take a camera.  As with most landscapes, there is really nothing quite like strolling around a golf course at “magic hour.”  Loosely defined as the first hour after sunrise and the last hour before sunset, but for practical photographic results, it’s really at least a half hour before and after sunrise and sunset added onto the journey.  Being there, after all, is the critical ingredient.

If you happen to be in Scotland, as I was, in late May and early June, this presents some challenges to your scheduling and is not recommended as a social activity.  Sunrise and sunset are not separated by many comfortable hours in the sack—figure on about four or four and a half hours, at best, between magic hours, something like between 11 PM and 3:30 AM local time.  Your sack time is enhanced by staying as close as possible to your destination.  Also, some planning is involved if you are after a particular image.  Again, being at the right place at the right time and catching a bit of luck.

Some of my best memories of golf in Scotland come from my solitary tramps around the links at sunrise and sunset.   My first was memorable enough.  Aided by a poor adjustment to local time, I woke up at 3 AM after my first night in Scotland.  I grabbed my camera and headed across the road to Cruden Bay Golf Club.  I got in about an hour of picture taking as the golf course came to life in the warm glow of a brilliant sunrise, the low raking light creating a tumbling landscape of dewy dunes and contrasting shadows.  Eventually, I spotted a woman off in the distance walking her attack dog.  The dog spotted me and charged, barking ferociously, until it was leaping and barking all around me.  Thus my introduction to the indomitable Rosemary Pittendrigh, Club Secretary and benevolent despot of CBGC, who demanded to know what exactly I was doing strolling around her golf course.  Three days later, I was convinced that not much went on around Cruden Bay that escaped Rosemary’s attention.
 
I was traveling alone so stayed on this odd schedule for a little more than a week.  Getting up and walking the courses at sunrise, playing golf during the day, grabbing a nap if needed, eating dinner, walking and photographing the courses at sunset, a quick sleep, and going again.   I was lucky with the weather and got some great pictures.  I also chatted with the grounds crews and watched the early birds heading out for their rounds with their golf dogs before heading off to work.  In the evenings I shared the course with a few golfers playing until dark.  It was a lovely, soulful introduction to links golf that made me a true believer.  Everyone couldn’t have been nicer or more welcoming as we were all lucky to be soaking in the beauty at this magical time of day.  Eventually, the schedule took its toll and I snuck in my camera strolls when I could.
 
My first and most lasting memories of places like Cruden Bay, Dornoch, Brora, Machrihanish, TOC, and North Berwick are from these solitary strolls in the dunes.  The golf was great, of course, but this total immersion into the landscape of golf from dawn to dusk haunts me still as something I’ll never do again in quite the same way.  That’s OK; I’m grateful I did it once.

Tom Kelly

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2013, 05:35:12 AM »
Dave,

Some of my favourite memories of golf courses are from the 'magic hour' as you call it. It's is one of the great bonuses of the early morning alarm calls you get as a greenkeeper and part of the job that I will always miss after my short stint.

I will also always remember the Sunday evening walks I had on TOC during my time in St Andrews, not only is it stunningly beautiful but the shadows bringing out the best of the undulations which as we all know on TOC are everywhere is a great way to learn more about the course in my opinion. I will never forget taking one my mates who had come to stay down to TOC for the first time straight after he arrived and just before the sun set. As we walked around the corner from Golf Place to look down 18, the setting sun hit us and the view looked like it had been 'photo-shopped' in front of our eyes it looked so good. The photos I took don't do it justice in the slightest!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2013, 05:46:03 AM »
The magic hour at the 2009 Walker Cup was so accessible. Media parking was a literal stone's throw from the 13th tee. That's what is fine about non-US Opens at the world's nuanced courses

I shan't find myself at Merion this June, so I remember her in the magic hour, albeit with Klieg lights







Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dave McCollum

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2013, 05:00:24 PM »
I wrote that late at the tail end of a long day a perhaps wandered off into the self indulgence of fond memories.  If there was a point, “broadening” one’s education about golf courses comes in many forms.  I’ve reached the age that I don’t feel the burning desire to rush off to the far corners of golfdom just to fill out my wish list of “must” plays.  I certainly don’t intend to do the “total immersion” solitary road warrior bit again.  These days I’m more likely to enjoy a social round with friends and share what little I’ve learned if it happens to come up as part of enjoying the golf.
 
For example, during my last big trip exploring golf courses (to Ireland), I spent the first week playing with a group of supers and the second, as long as I was there, playing my “must play” list.  Both experiences were enjoyable and I got to see some fantastic golf.  However, during that second week when I found myself alone out on some wind and rain-swept links, trudging along with my own thoughts, I missed the fun of sharing it with some pals.  The questions also arose:  “Why am I doing this?”  Is this for my general education or to nuance my understanding of subtleties from one great links from another?”  Clearly, I was more informed and better educated than I was during my maiden voyage of discovery described above.  My enjoyment was enhanced by my experience.  Yet, a former passion was missing.  Blame it on crappy Irish weather, the fun of social golf, or whatever, I just couldn’t muster the energy to fill every waking minute with as much golf as I could.  Oh, I stopped to smell the roses plenty, I was just doing it at a more leisurely pace. 

The following winter I figured out that I had played about 15% of somebody’s list the 100 greatest courses.  Modest, at best, compared to the ambitions expressed in this thread.  For me, at this stage in my life, that seemed like a suitable foundation to continue my education and enjoyment of the game.

So, to you younger golf nuts I say:  enjoy your travels, follow your passions, and have a great time along the way.  I’m going to enjoy reading about it while I mostly pursue other golf dreams, not the least of which is trying to maximize the pleasure of the rest of my time left.  Hopefully, that includes a few more gca.com outings before total geezer mode sets in.  And don’t forget to look for your own magic hours.

PCCraig

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2013, 05:07:38 PM »
Why does everything on GCA have to be about building a "Resume", "Belt Notching" or "Whipping it Out?"  ::)
H.P.S.

Connor Dougherty

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2013, 05:37:21 PM »
Why does everything on GCA have to be about building a "Resume", "Belt Notching" or "Whipping it Out?"  ::)

I certainly can see how this is turning into a "whipping it out" or "belt notching" post, so I'm going to try to bring it back to its original intentions.

IMO, rounding out education on GCA is about three things:
1. variety of architects
2. variety of landscapes
3. variety of location

To explain the first, the greatest deviations in style and design tend to be because golf courses are designed by different architects. For that reason I would say seeing work from a variety of architects is probably the most important aspect of rounding out one's study. In my case, I learned an incredible amount walking around Waverley CC because it's one of the few H Chandler Egan courses close to it's original state, and the first I had ever seen. There were a lot of ideas used there that I hadn't seen before, namely the idea of pushing up the back of a green and then letting it steeply drop off at the back is a principle I've only seen at Waverley, and one that worked quite well. I've not seen any CB Mac or Seth Raynor courses (although I have extensively looked at photo tours on here and Ran's profiles to help amend this) and am dearly hoping to change that this summer. Their work really appeals to me because it's quite different from what I'm used to. I've played Donald Ross courses but not since I've taken an interest in GCA.

After that, the difference between designing on linksland and clay is obviously huge, and with it the differences between golf courses on different landscapes are quite large. I still think if you're seeing work from the same architect in different landscapes the odds are you will find more similarities between two courses by the same architect than two courses in the same landscape (exhibit A: Bandon Dunes)

Lastly, location. If an architect is seeing something next to the golf course he is building, it can influence him to do certain things a certain way at the club he is building. If I recall that affected Tom Doak's design at Renaissance (making sure the course fit in well with neighboring Muirfield) An analysis of golf courses based on location I think is interesting, but obviously doesn't have as much impact as the first two.

I think the "Gourmet's Choice" section of the Confidential Guide is a good place to start with it. It doesn't mean checking off every course on that list, or even being required to see that specific course by the architect (i.e. while it would be great to learn about Dr. MacKenzie at Crystal Downs, you can learn a lot about his design philosophy seeing CPC, Pasatiempo, or Royal Melbourne). Take the architects off that list, figure out which of their courses are still in tact for the most part, check out how their courses differ, and then where they are. By breaking it down in that form I think we'd all learn a lot.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Bart Bradley

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2013, 05:44:40 PM »
Is South Africa a must? Why or why not?

Mac, South Africa is a must for a million reasons.  I have already made 2 trips and plan on returning many times.

Humewood is a Bradley 7, as is Durban.

The magic of South Africa is in its people, its spirit, its geography, and its wildlife.

Let's talk about it when we are together...but for someone who cares about the world, is intellectually curious and has the means to go, S. Africa is absolutely, beyond discussion, a must.   And Pat C, this statement has nothing to do with resume, belt notching or displays of importance.  

As for places that I need to go:  New Zealand, Japan, Nova Scotia, and some more NE US and Ohio courses.  

I think that from an architecture perspective most under-rate the importance and variety of the courses in England.  

This echoes Scott Warren's comments, but Tom Simpson is the most under-discussed great architect.  Morfontaine, Chantilly, Fountainbleau, etc deserve praise and study.  The nine hole Valliere course has 7 of the greatest heavily contoured greens I have ever seen.  Admittedly, only seeing them once, I had a hard time processing all that was in the ground.  I'd love to chip and putt those greens hundreds of times to understand all that is there.

Bart

Bill Brightly

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2013, 06:50:29 PM »
Why does everything on GCA have to be about building a "Resume", "Belt Notching" or "Whipping it Out?"  ::)

Knock it off, Pat. This thread is not about belt notching. It is about what courses/regions are good to play to learn about golf course architecture, to enjoy golf course architecture, to learn more about the work of golf course architects.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2013, 06:51:57 PM »
Connor...outstanding...thanks!

Bart...I agree with the sentiment of that post.  A lot of the fun of traveling for golf is experiencing more than just the golf course.  Interesting take on South Africa.  And, great thought on Simpson.


The thoughts in Connor's post touch on one of the reasons I want to Royal Melbourne; the turf!  I've heard about the sand in Australia and how it is different than anywhere else.  And I've heard that the way the ball interacts with the fairways is damn near perfect for golf as well.  Add that to the design of the course and I think you might have something beyond special there.


Connor...furthermore, I love your comments on clay versus sand.  I'll never forget my first round of golf on Long Island.  It had rained HARD the night before, and coming from GA and the land of clay soil, I just KNEW the course would be waterlogged and nasty.  But, nope!  That sandy soil drained amazingly well that night and the course played darn near perfectly.  That experienced opened my eyes to one of the reasons why people said sandy loam is ideal for golf.


One place that I think might have under-rated turf is, of all places, Cleveland, Ohio.  I've only played one course in that area, Canterbury, and was really blown away by the quality of the turf.  Can't wait to see more courses in that area.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 06:56:50 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2013, 07:17:40 PM »
I have never been to Australia. Serious hole in my golf resume.

Sean_A

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2013, 07:23:58 PM »


Of course I am interested as I am in many other courses, but I don't reckon there is any single modern links out there which will add much to what I have already experienced.  


I think you're wrong  ;)

Very different animals. You need to see Bandon.

Maybe you are right, but Bandon doesn't register very high for me.  Mind you, much of it is pipe dream stuff anyway.  If it was that important I would have seen it already.  For me, getting back to places is more important than finding new places.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BHoover

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2013, 08:22:34 PM »
I don't know know where I would begin because there are so many regions and courses that I've yet to play. In no particular order, my preferences or wish list would be:

1. A Seth Raynor course
2. The Sandbelt in Australia
3. Bandon
4. Monterrey Peninsula
5. Shinny/NGLA/Southampton/Sebonack
6. UK & Ireland

Mac Plumart

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2013, 09:21:48 PM »
Any one particular Raynor you got your eye on, Brian?

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

BHoover

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2013, 09:27:10 PM »
Any one particular Raynor you got your eye on, Brian?



I don't really have any one Raynor in mind.  In Ohio, there is only one of which I am aware, so the  obvious choice would be Camargo. I also thought the photo tour of Fox Chapel outside Pittsburgh looked great. even Old White at the Greenbrier looks like it would be worth the trip (and where else can one engage in the sport of falconry?).

Mac Plumart

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2013, 09:30:47 PM »
where else can one engage in the sport of falconry?

Excellent point!   :D

Agree on all your points, especially on how cool Old White looks.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

BHoover

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2013, 09:36:01 PM »
where else can one engage in the sport of falconry?

Excellent point!   :D

Agree on all your points, especially on how cool Old White looks.

Are there any public Raynor courses?

Jason Walker

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2013, 09:37:05 PM »
where else can one engage in the sport of falconry?

Excellent point!   :D

Agree on all your points, especially on how cool Old White looks.

Old White is awesome, and in addition to falconry and trap shooting, I always seem to enjoy gaming in a jacket and tie.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2013, 09:46:09 PM »
Are there any public Raynor courses?

I don't believe so...if you don't count resort courses.

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/seth-raynor.html
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Connor Dougherty

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2013, 11:16:45 PM »
The thoughts in Connor's post touch on one of the reasons I want to Royal Melbourne; the turf!  I've heard about the sand in Australia and how it is different than anywhere else.  And I've heard that the way the ball interacts with the fairways is damn near perfect for golf as well.  Add that to the design of the course and I think you might have something beyond special there.

Mac,
Your comment is a great example of a case study that you could do which will help illustrate my point. The turf at Royal Melbourne (and the Sandbelt overall) is some of the best in all of golf. It drains well, has a spring to it, but is still soft enough that you can attack tucked pins and be aggressive when you want. It gives you so many options for playing shots.

Comparatively, there's Pasatiempo. It doesn't have the scale or turf that Royal Melbourne has because it's mostly clay soil. However, many of the design principles, being another MacKenzie course that has been well preserved, remain the same. Wild greens, artful bunkering, options off the tee. I would say that Pasatiempo accounts for the fact that the course is clay by making more aggressive shots take an aerial approach. In the end, a lot can be learned from seeing both, but if we were talking about rounding out one's knowledge on GCA, if he has played one of the above, I would probably send him to the course of an architect he hasn't seen.


Brian, I'm surprised Yale is not on your list. I'm really looking forward to seeing that this summer. I'm someone who loves the idea of MacDonald and Raynor's courses, particularly the juxtaposition between his hazards and their natural surroundings, but have yet to see any of them in person. It's probably not the best of the Raynor bunch (There are a few I want to see more), but by all accounts, Yale is both an incredible engineering feat and an interesting golf course.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Mac Plumart

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2013, 11:35:36 AM »
Connor...

Given that I have a burning desire to play Royal Melbourne, what Sandbelt course would you suggest as a good compliment to it?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

BHoover

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2013, 08:21:00 PM »


Brian, I'm surprised Yale is not on your list. I'm really looking forward to seeing that this summer. I'm someone who loves the idea of MacDonald and Raynor's courses, particularly the juxtaposition between his hazards and their natural surroundings, but have yet to see any of them in person. It's probably not the best of the Raynor bunch (There are a few I want to see more), but by all accounts, Yale is both an incredible engineering feat and an interesting golf course.


I would definitely like to play Yale at some point. I didn't mean to exclude it, but New Haven is not exactly on my travel itinerary anytime soon. My father-in-law is a Yale Law alum, however, so maybe I can convince my wife that we need to accompany her parents the next time they visit New Haven. However, my father-in-law has zero interest in golf, much less golf course architecture; he is a tennis fanatic. Is there a GCA equivalent for tennis?

I was only trying to think of Raynor's courses closest to me in Ohio. The only ones that came to mind were Camargo, Fox Chapel and Old White.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 08:25:52 PM by Brian Hoover »

Bart Bradley

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2013, 08:30:59 PM »
Connor...

Given that I have a burning desire to play Royal Melbourne, what Sandbelt course would you suggest as a good compliment to it?

Kingston Heath.

Bart

Bart Bradley

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Re: Resume and Recommendation
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2013, 08:32:00 PM »
Connor...

Given that I have a burning desire to play Royal Melbourne, what Sandbelt course would you suggest as a good compliment to it?

Oh and besides being a great course, Kingston Heath sits directly next to the commuter airport where you catch Vortex Air to fly back and forth to Barnbougle.

Bart