[Joe Bausch]

That present 7th green has been highly controversial with the membership since being redone around 2002-3. A Special Committee has just been formed to look into what to do about it.
 
Thankfully, or perhaps unthankfully, this man TE Paul, who is also highly controversial in some circles, seems to have inserted himself as the chairman of this Special Committee on the 7th Hole. Gil Hanse's marvelous partner, Jim Wagner is presently on the job.
 
The Lurker

[JMEvensky]

 TE Paul, who is also highly controversial in some circles
 
 The Lurker

 Has TEP/The Lurker now gone completely schizophrenic?

 I hope he/they don't start referring to himself/themselves in the 3rd person.

[David Amarnek]

There are sure some very tough pin positions on that green, especially when they are running at 12-13! (AJDP Cup).
Toughest of the three par 5's for me.

[John Burnes]

More lurker!

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Dear Lurker,

Regarding the number six green.

I was misled by the original preamble to this thread which indicated that Flynn rebuilt all the Ross greens. Now I learn that they were re-grassed. The sixth green's current rendition never spoke "Flynn" to me nor "Ross".

I am guilty of Maxwell profiling! Take me away!

Always learning here at GCA!

Kind Regards,

Malcolm

[Joe Bausch]

#8.  Dogleg left par 4 (351 yards).

Nifty little hole here with a great PMax green.



From the ED:

     The 8th Hole is a dogleg left measuring 330 yards from the back tee (yardage is measured down the center of the fairway around the dogleg to the green).  Although guarded from the tee by a pond, willow trees and extensive bunkering, the green has been driven. The original hole measured 397 yards with a severely sloping green placed on the hill above the present 9th rear tee box. Until the mid 1930s, the hole played as a very slight dogleg left with the left side of the fairway crossing the site of the present left pond.  Extensive cross-bunkering, behind the leftside 4th tee and 125 yards off the 8th tee, was removed in 1941 by Wayne Stiles. A well-bunkered and undulating green was constructed at the base of the hill by Perry Maxwell in 1933. The hole shape was altered to a sharp dogleg left around a newly constructed pond. The pond on the right of the fairway was also added during this redesign.

     The 8th Hole has options off the tee and can be played aggressively with quite high risk-reward. Some feel it is not a good idea to get too close to this green with the drive as short finesse approaches seem to frequently fail.  The green and green complex is classic Perry Maxwell. The bunker-encircled, shallow; undulating green is one of the best on the course. The small grass island in the front left bunker is a Maxwell trademark. The quadrants of the green all have excellent pin positions and all quadrants are hard to putt to from the other quadrants.

Tee view:



Can't just bunt one or you'll have to negotiate this willow tree:



Approach shot view:



View from the next tee above:



More later after I play George Fazio's first design this morning.   

[Charlie Gallagher]

     The Philadelphia area is blessed with some truly great short par 4's. 10 and 11 at Merion immediately come to mind as does 12 at Rolling Green. Number 8 at Gulph Mills is another of the regions finest short 4's.
      I have seen very long drivers of the ball go for this green in one. It is a small target surrounded by uneven ground, ledge behind the green, the fronting pond, and an array of bunkers, in addition to gnarly rough. The willow near the left water hazard can come into play on a less than purely struck drive if one is going for the green.
      For mere mortals a good play is to drive the ball between and beyond the ponds. This sets up a less than full sand wedge or 60 degree wedge to the small, undulating, green. You see an awful lot of misses on the approach on this hole, even with the wedge in the hands of a superior player. Laying back with the drive is dangerous because the hazards are brought more into play and the approach is more difficult from further away due to the small size of the green. The green has multiple slopes and rolls and three puts are not uncommon, especially if one gets above the hole. As with #4, the Wee One, on number 8 par is a good score. Number 8 is listed as the 17th handicap hole on the card. I am sure most can guess which hole is the 18th handicap.
   Pretty neat that this one course has two of the best short holes in greater Philadelphia, an area rich with superb golf courses.

[David Amarnek]

Simply put, my favorite hole at GMGC and one of my favorite green sites of my experience.

[Joe Bausch]

From the Lurker:
 
I believe the 8th hole green and green-end (bunkering arrangement) is essentially a Maxwell "template." I believe he did this green arrangement and green surrounding bunker arrangement app 3-6 times including ANGC #7, whose green is in something of a mirror image to this one. GMGC's might've been the first but I cannot confirm that at this time. The original Ross #8 green was about a hundred yards up the hill to the left of the present 9th tees. You can still see vestiges of Ross's old 8th green and green-side bunker cavities on the ground.

In the Hanse restoration Master Plan over ten years ago we tried to remove the willows over the pond a few trees down the left to basically show the green from the tee but the membership resisted that one more than any other item on the Master Plan.

[Mike_Trenham]

The idea of a Maxwell template never occurred to me, but I came up with 7 at Augusta immediately. 

The tee shot here is strategic golf 101, plus it plays with your (my) ego.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Could this be the most extremely contoured green in the Philadelphia area.

Yup!, quite likely!

[Joe Bausch]

#9.  Par 4 (377 yards).



From the ED:

     The 9th Hole has undergone extensive tee and green alterations over the years at the hands of at least two and possibly three designers. The original 9th tee is, what most members believe to be, the alternate 2nd tee. Donald Ross' plan called for a 409 yard hole arcing slightly left all the way. The green was located on top of the hill extending front to back from the right side of the present 10th rear tee box to the cart park area for the 10th hole. The blind and bunkerless green was 50-60 feet above the base of the fairway.

     The last fifty yards of the fairway was an extremely steep incline causing balls not reaching the green to roll to the base of the hill. Wayne Stiles' 1940 recommendation was approved to construct a log riser stair up the right hillside to the green. This is the same stair from the present 9th green to the 10th tee. The original bunkering at the inside of the dogleg, 175 yards off the tee, was allowed to grass over in the mid 1930s.

     ].B. McGovern was contracted in 1946 to move the 9th green to the base of the hill, its present location, and to build the present rear tee box. The "new" 9th green proved unsatisfactory and it was redone by Robert Trent Jones in 1966. Today, the hole plays in the 360-370 yard range. The original rear tee box is being used in 1998 as an alternate tee.

     The 360-370 yard 9th can play as long as any hole of its length. The finishing holes on both nines underscore the lengthy "playable" distance of GMGC approach shots which is the theme of the course. The semi-blind green has good strategic intensity with a narrow front and a back to front two tier. The right rear pin position is very high shot value.

Elevated view from the forward tee box:



Approach view:



From the hill left of the green:



From the back edge of the green:

[Joe Bausch]

#10.  Dogleg-left par 4 (417 yards).



From the ED:

     The 10th hole has been the most extensively altered of any hole at GMGC. The original design was 459 yards and believed to be a par 5. From a tee located on the present upper practice tee, the hole played straight-away, down the practice range, to a green located nearly 50 yards beyond the present 10th green.

     In 1933, the original green was graded over and a new green was constructed by Perry Maxwell on its present location, with par dropping to 4.

     Wayne Stiles recommended grassing over the left fairway bunker. The depression can still be seen to the left of the 150 yard flag on the practice range. WF Gordon enlarged the pond in front of the new green in 1958. Since the loss of the Varian Tract across Swedeland Rd. in the 1940s, GMGC was without a practice area. Robert Trent Jones was brought in to correct this problem and his solution was to use the 10th tee and the entire 10th fairway as the new range. As he and Willis De La Com stood on the old 12th fairway, he looked over at the lath green and stated: "this will do for the new lath fairway, the green is facing right at us." This necessitated the rearrangement of the LOth, 12th and 13th holes.  The new 10th tee was placed fifty yards to the right of the old tee, on the site of the old 9th green, and the final third of the old 12th fairway and the 12th green were appropriated as the first half of the new lath routing. According to Mr. De La Com, Jones recommended "pulling a tongue down on the lath green", extending the front of the green to the edge of the pond.

     Jones' alterations created a 415 yard dogleg left, with a tee to fairway base-drop of approximately 60-65 feet. Eventually, a line of evergreens were planted around the outside of the dogleg to screen the sightline of the new 10th from the new 12th hole, ending with an original hackberry tree. The combination of dogleg left, with the landing area for the drive canting in a negative camber and very penal trees just through the fairway, created controversy A properly placed drive in "running conditions" could easily carom off the fairway into the trees and be severely penalized. In 1997, the original Hackberry breathed its last, the offending evergreens were removed and the fairway was moved slightly right to flatten and extend the landing area at the base of the fairway. (Fazio's 1992 recommendation, Alternative 2.).

     The 10th hole has seen a vast improvement with the removal of the evergreens through the fairway. From the tee, the shifting of the fairway right has moved the apparent center of the fairway increasing the length of the approach shot and it takes some experimenting to decide where best to hit the ball. Donald Ross would have appreciated this subtlety The likelihood of going too long, through the fairway into the rough, is something with which Ross probably would not have had much of a problem.

     The essence of Ross' philosophy was the recovery shot and the miscalculated tee shot, in this case, would be penalized to the extent that the approach to the green, or its orientation, was made more difficult. This was part of his half shot penalty concept: if a stellar recovery was produced the player would be back in the game. This he felt heightened the constant ebb and flow of the competition. If Ross was asked about the placement of a bunker or trees at the outside of this dogleg he probably would have advised to let the topography and the angle be the design feature. He may have further advised that since the negative camber at the tum is not ideal there is no need to complicate matters.

     The 10th hole may remain somewhat controversial with its complicated left-right landing area and right-left swing of the routing. This, however, brings up a few interesting and general architectural points. A good architect strives to create a course that offers good variety. He wants to provide a test where the player can, or occasionally must, hit different shots. He does not, however, want to stress one particular style of shot over another.

     Generally, the player should be able to choose his own shot style and his own risk and reward. This is part of the options and alternatives of good "strategic" design. GMGC probably favors the fade, but almost every hole will accept a fade, draw or straight shot, which makes GMGC an excellent strategic course for every style. This is not the case with the tee shot on the 10th; a fade off the tee, unless extremely long and high does not work well. This instance of a "forced shot" may be looked at as increased variety in an overall sense and may be seen to balance the 15th hole, which really does not accept a drawn tee shot, unless extremely long and high.

     Occasionally, even a "strategically" designed course will be heavily weighted in favor of a particular type of shot. Some believe Augusta National, a "strategic" course, stresses the draw. Top flight players often analyze whether a course routing is predominately clockwise or counterclockwise. In a tournament context, they may refuse to playa course they believe does not suit their shot style. A good example is Lee Trevino, who refused to play in the Masters, as he felt his fade could not work at Augusta. His opinion of Augusta and its weighting could be debated as Jack Nicklaus, a lifelong fader, won six green jackets.  It is safe to say that neither a left to right nor a right to left player would consider refusing to compete at GMGC.

     The tenth green is a wonderful example of the humps and bumps of "Maxwell Rolls". The Robert Trent Jones front add-on is a very good feature with a high shot value pin position. The right rear comer is also high shot value.

Elevated tee view:



Approach view:



From just short of the pond:



Looking back from over the green, I very much like this picture:

[Phil McDade]

Joe:

Another great photo tour; I've always liked reversed cambered fairways like the 10th -- I think they pose a challenge for golfers often not seen on courses. This course in Wisconsin, Old Hickory (with an original nine designed by Tom Bendelow) has a good one on the 4th hole:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36792.0.html

Medinah #3 also has one or two of these -- they provide some interest on some flatter parts of that course.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I greatly dislike reverse camber fairways and I don't like the 10th fairway at GMGC.  However as I remember it, one of the most interesting greens I have ever seen.  Ranks up there with the 2nd at Crystal Downs as one my favorite greens.  Maxwell rolls are cool.

[Joe Bausch]

From the Lurker:
 
Phil McDade:
 
You're right, Joe Bausch sure does do some wonderful photo tours of courses. With his first photo from the tee of #10, one can see the first half of the 12th hole in the distance. Combined with what we see as the first half of the 10th hole was Ross's original 12th. You can even see a few little contours about 10-15 yards past the cart path which are the remains of Ross's old 12th green and bunker cavities. His 12th played to 555 yds, the longest par 5 the course had.
 
Again, GMGC is unusual in that it's total card yardage was longer in 1917 than it is today.

[John Ezekowitz]

I remember the slope in front of the 9th green being more severe than it looks in that picture. Perhaps it is because I had my approach shot spin back about 15 yards down the hill when I played it!

[Joe Bausch]

From the Lurker:
  
Lynn:
 
You are definitely within the vast majority in not liking reverse camber fairways.
 
Since Donald Ross did not design in an area for a practice range, in the 1960s RTJ took the fairway of Ross's original 10th hole (to the left of the present fairway) as our practice range, and moved the first half of the fairway of #10 to the second half of the fairway of Ross's old 12th. That created that negative camber tee shot on #10.

[Phil McDade]

I greatly dislike reverse camber fairways...

Lynn:

I'm curious -- why not?

[Joe Bausch]

#11.  Uphill par 4 (363 yards).

Another wonderful Maxwell green on this hole.



From the ED:

     Members who have never seen the aerial photographs or the Donald Ross survey plan will be amazed that the originaillth hole was a 229 yard uphill par 3. Judging from the length of the opening holes on either nine of the original design, one would assume that a Ross philosophy was that one should be "limbered up" before starting off.

     The original long and narrow llth green began at the present fairway pot bunker and extended in the rear to approximately 20 yards in front of the present green. Three years after relocating the 8th and 10th greens, Perry Maxwell was brought back, in 1937, to redo the 11th and 14th holes. Tee boxes were placed behind the #18 tee box and to the right of the #10 green and a small, undulating, well-bunkered green was constructed 35 yards above the original green. Maxwell added the fairway pot bunker and the second left fairway bunker was added in the 1950s by WE Gordon. The cross bunker now used on #11, as a legitimate tee shot cross bunker, is the last remaining functional Ross "topped shot" bunker on the course; although designed for the original par 3.

     The old tee boxes for the original 11th hole can be seen to the left, 40-50 yards off the present tee. Halfway between the tee and the beginning of the fairway, the outline of the old #10 green and its bunkering is still visible. In the fairway just above the pot bunker, is a slight terrace which was the old #11 green. The two right side fairway bunkers were the original par 3 right greenside bunkers.

     This hole has an interesting amalgamation of design features from the original par 3 that still works well enough. The driving area is generous and provides alternatives. The Perry Maxwell green and complex is another exciting test with as much intensity as the 8th.  The front right pin position is closely guarded by the front greenside bunker and you don't want to be long. The top of the front bunker is raised, deceiving the player's depth perception of the right half of the green.

     A good conservative play for this pin is front left. The front left pin can be extremely fast coming from above it if the green speed is up. The right rear shelf is a terrific feature that is not overly demanding unless you happen to reach it and the pin is not there.


Tee view:



Approach view:



From just short of the green:



From just over the green:

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I greatly dislike reverse camber fairways...

Lynn:

I'm curious -- why not?

I like to play by feel and what my eye tells me.  If the fairway is cambered toward the green, it feels so good to set-up a draw or fade and let gravity assist me.  When this happens I feel I have combined the implement, my mind and skill, along with mother nature to optimize the shot.  I have also reduced the yardage of the next shot.  I believe golf is enjoyed most when all of the above are enabled in a shot.
For a reverse or negative camber, the ball will bounce away from the target even if I have "fought" with spin to minimize the "damage."
I feel like I am not in control, that mother nature prevents me from optimizing my implement, mind and swing.  As a result it doesn't appeal to my eye and thus reduces the satisfaction in shot making.

[David Amarnek]

Re. #11
Two interesting features (besides the wonderful green!):
The tee box is essentially shared with #18.  The back tees for #11 are near the forward tees for #18 and the back tees for #18 are near the front tees for #11 making it play around 464 instead of 421 (both par 5's!!).
Also, the #11 green is almost contiguous with #15 green with a closely mown area connecting the two.  It would be pretty cool to have a true double green there.

[Joe Bausch]

Re. #11
Two interesting features (besides the wonderful green!):
The tee box is essentially shared with #18.  The back tees for #11 are near the forward tees for #18 and the back tees for #18 are near the front tees for #11 making it play around 464 instead of 421 (both par 5's!!).
Also, the #11 green is almost contiguous with #15 green with a closely mown area connecting the two.  It would be pretty cool to have a true double green there.

From The Lurker:
 
 
David A:
 
I believe the Hanse Master Plan called for the 11th and 18th tees to be reconstructed into a combined rather large curvilinear affair. When the subject of the cost of reconstructing such a large tee came up (something like between 30-50K), I believe it was that infamous and highly controversial Tom Paul who suggested, since those two tees sort of lined up although playing in opposite directions, to simply reposition the 11th and 18th back tee markers as you described to add combined tee yardage to both holes in the neighborhood of about 80 yards; And better yet that it would cost nothing. He was presenting the Master Plan at a meeting at the time to most of the membership. They liked the idea of no cost but when they heard him say that golfers would be driving in opposite directions right at one another a number of members stood up at the same time and asked this infamous, controversial Paul fellow if he was trying to kill GMGC members. I understand he simply asked all those who asked that question if they actually expected golfers, even including GMGC golfers, to stand within 80 yards of one another in plain view and drive golf balls right at each other. I understand that explanation answered that question to their satisfaction, so that is the way the back tee markers have been arranged on those two holes for the last decade or so.

[Mike Sweeney]

I had no idea this course was this good. Considering the location, it looks very peaceful too.

9 & 10 look a little awkward but the rest look like lots of fun. Thanks as always to Joe B.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

A wonderful/evil green indeed!

This is a pretty straight forward hole except that there are pin positions on the Maxwell green that are quite punishing if your approach ends up in the wrong spot.

I have seen many, many  strokes taken to get down from a slight miss just off of this green.

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