[Jon Wiggett]

Water temperature in an irrigation pond/lake, especially water temperature when turf temperature is at 86 degrees F is ALL about depth.
Depth determines temperature.

no Patrick, depth is just one of the factors in deciding water temperature. Air temperature, exposure to sunlight, strength of the sunlight, length of the daylight, temperature of the surrounding material, temperature of any incoming source of water are just a few of the others. That you think depth determines temperature shows how little you know about the subject.

Of course if you can produce written and proven evidence that it is just depth then please produce it


That you don't understand the relationship says all I need to know.

You cited turf  temperature at 86 F and water temperature being applied to that turf of 39 F, a mere 7 degrees above freezing.

Please show where I cite TURF temperature.

That you chose to get nasty and personalize your replies tells me all I need to know about you.[/size][/color]

That you lie about what others have said says heaps about you

[Jon Wiggett]

Our irrigation pump had to be replaced the other week.  A submersible at  a depth of 37 metres which is over 100 feet. I also know of a course where air temps can exceed 30 degrees c and they pump from a lake which is only 8 degree c temperature.

Grant,

I take it your pump was in a bore hole?

I worked on one course where they were extracting water from an irrigation pond that was river water fed and never got above 3C (glacial run off) with rootzone temperatures over 35C. When they syringed just after midday the greens would be steaming for 10 to 15 minutes. No moisture ever got down more than half an inch after such watering and the rootzone below this was bone dry. All it did was ensure shallow rooting though the person in charge insisted it was the only way.

Jon

[Mark Chaplin]

Grant - can you provide certified measurements to prove the depth of the pump and daily records of the lake temperature as well as calibration records on the thermometer? 

[Jon Wiggett]

Grant - can you provide certified measurements to prove the depth of the pump and daily records of the lake temperature as well as calibration records on the thermometer? 

Now now Mark, I hope you are not insinuating anything

[Grant Saunders]

Our irrigation pump had to be replaced the other week.  A submersible at  a depth of 37 metres which is over 100 feet. I also know of a course where air temps can exceed 30 degrees c and they pump from a lake which is only 8 degree c temperature.

Grant,

I take it your pump was in a bore hole?

I worked on one course where they were extracting water from an irrigation pond that was river water fed and never got above 3C (glacial run off) with rootzone temperatures over 35C. When they syringed just after midday the greens would be steaming for 10 to 15 minutes. No moisture ever got down more than half an inch after such watering and the rootzone below this was bone dry. All it did was ensure shallow rooting though the person in charge insisted it was the only way.

Jon

Jon

Yes, the pump was in a bore hole. I suppose that maybe doesnt fit the discussion about ponds.

The other example is much like you describe as with the water source a large lake feed by glacial run off. The water is drawn via a wet well. For what its worth, the depth of the wet well would be over 20 feet.

[Grant Saunders]

Grant,

Don't keep us in the dark, what are the names of those courses which have irrigation ponds with depths over 100 feet,  and where are they located ?[/size][/color]

Why would I bother, you havent heard of them.  It isnt Pine Valley, Augusta, or any other top 50 US golf course that seems to be your limited frame of reference.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Water temperature in an irrigation pond/lake, especially water temperature when turf temperature is at 86 degrees F is ALL about depth.
Depth determines temperature.

no Patrick, depth is just one of the factors in deciding water temperature. Air temperature, exposure to sunlight, strength of the sunlight, length of the daylight, temperature of the surrounding material, temperature of any incoming source of water are just a few of the others. That you think depth determines temperature shows how little you know about the subject.

Jon,

You really are obtuse.

With surface turf temperatures at 86 degrees F, all of those elements are pretty much factored in.

Of course if you can produce written and proven evidence that it is just depth then please produce it

YOU stated that surface turf temperatures were at 86 degrees F, yet the water from the pond was 39 degrees F, a mere 7 degrees above freezing.

Would you cite


That you don't understand the relationship says all I need to know.

You cited turf temperature at 86 F and water temperature from an irrigation pond, being applied to that turf of 39 F, a mere 7 degrees above freezing.  Would you tell us where that course is located ?

Please show where I cite TURF temperature.

Read what you wrote in replies # 9 and 12 and let us know if you can figure it out

That you chose to get nasty and personalize your replies tells me all I need to know about you.[/size][/color]

That you lie about what others have said says heaps about you

Cite for me, with exacting specificity, where I've lied "about what others have said"

Absent your ability to do so, would indicate that you are the liar, in addition to other things.

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

I was not being obtuse but rather pointing out that you were incorrect in believing that temperature is all about depth. Of course for a man who does not know his inlets from his outlets its not surprising you have no clue about this either

As for the other thing. You keep on saying I stated 'turf temperature' even going as far as to put reply 9 and 12 to back your point. If you take the trouble to read what I actually wrote you will see I talk about rootzone. All you have done is prove what a liar you are.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I was not being obtuse but rather pointing out that you were incorrect in believing that temperature is all about depth.

Temperature is all about depth.
You just don't have a significant understanding on the subject.
You also fail, again, to understand that if your root zone temperature is above 86 degrees, the atmospheric temperature is near or above 86 degrees.

Of course for a man who does not know his inlets from his outlets its not surprising you have no clue about this either

Intake and outfall pipes are more about nomenclature/perspective and use
The same pipe may be an intake pipe for a pump and an outfall pipe for the source.
But, if you knew what you were talking about I wouldn't have to educate you on that

As for the other thing. You keep on saying I stated 'turf temperature' even going as far as to put reply 9 and 12 to back your point.
If you take the trouble to read what I actually wrote you will see I talk about rootzone.

All you have done is prove what a liar you are.

I'm aware of the fact that you were talking about the rootzone.

Now, I'm going to prove what a true moron you are, using your own words, which will prove that I'm telling the truth and that you're the liar.

Here's what you stated in reply #'s 9 and 12

# 9

Is it not better to have the water as close to the temperature of the rootzone?
By pumping significantly colder water onto the grass all you achieve is shocking the grass and slowing/stopping growth which is surely not desirable as it might lead to increased disease occurrence.


Here's what you stated in reply # 12

In a body of water of any decent size it is unlikely that temperatures will rise above 30C which will still cool the rootzone down without shock.[/b]

Actually, pumping significantly colder water (mains water used by many is only 4C or 5C) will not only shock the grass short term but might also lead to an increase in temp long term.

Now this is common sense, so try to follow it without getting lost.

If water temperatures are 30 C, which is 86 F, and you apply water of that temperature to the root zone, and that application cools down the root zone, THAT MEANS THAT THE ROOT ZONE TEMPERATURE WAS ABOVE 86 F.

Do you follow that so far ?
Let me help you again.

The rootzone temperature HAD to be above 86 F, otherwise, the water at 86 F couldn't cool it down.

Now, if the root zone temperature was above 86 F, a prudent person, not you, but, a prudent person, would deduce that the temperature at the surface, is at or greater than 86 F.

With temperatures of 86 F or higher at the surface of the retention pond, I want to know where you're getting water that's slightly above freezing at 39 F ?

The answer is that you made a foolish statement and tried to bluster and bluff your way out of it.
But, when questioned and challenged, rather than meet the challenge with a reasoned response, you chose to get nasty and personalize your remarks.

By your own words I've proved that you don't understand math and relativity and what a fool and liar you are.

Thanks for contributing to your own demise.

[Steve Okula]

Jeff,

in a body of water of any decent size it is unlikely that temperatures will rise above 30C which will still cool the rootzone down without shock. Actually, pumping significantly colder water (mains water used by many is only 4C or 5C) will not only shock the grass short term but might also lead to an increase in temp long term.

Jon

How does colder water lead to higher temperatures?.

[Steve Okula]

Our irrigation pump had to be replaced the other week.  A submersible at  a depth of 37 metres which is over 100 feet. I also know of a course where air temps can exceed 30 degrees c and they pump from a lake which is only 8 degree c temperature.

Grant,

I take it your pump was in a bore hole?

I worked on one course where they were extracting water from an irrigation pond that was river water fed and never got above 3C (glacial run off) with rootzone temperatures over 35C. When they syringed just after midday the greens would be steaming for 10 to 15 minutes. No moisture ever got down more than half an inch after such watering and the rootzone below this was bone dry. All it did was ensure shallow rooting though the person in charge insisted it was the only way.

Jon

Was the midday syringe the only water the greens got? Did the person in charge not water full cycles at night? How did the greens survive this?

[Jon Wiggett]

Steve,

with regards to colder water leading to higher temps. Although the colder water will lead to a drop in temperature as the water evaporates won't that lead to the end temperature being raised higher through the evaporating effect. I seem to remember something along these lines from high school physics although it was quite a while go and I could be wrong which is why I put might in the sentence. I suspect that your knowledge on this will be somewhat better than mine given your background.

The greens did receive water through the night as far as I remember though that was not part of my area of work and to be fair about the old irrigation system was somewhat antiquated. The greens did not survive this which was one of the reasons why the course was rebuilt.

Jon
 

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

more irrelevant rambling about things you do not understand on your behalf. More tellingly you fail to answer the most clear and easy questions. It is amazing you can tell the difference between your arse and your elbow, or can you

I said it before and I will say it again you sad, sad little man.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

more irrelevant rambling about things you do not understand on your behalf.

My statements are scientifically and mathematically correct and no amount of diversionary bluster on your part can change that.
By your own words I proved you wrong.
Take it like a man and stop whining in your nasty, feminine way.

More tellingly you fail to answer the most clear and easy questions.

What questions went unanswered ?

It is amazing you can tell the difference between your arse and your elbow, or can you

Even with blurred vision, I can recognize a horses ass when I see one

I said it before and I will say it again you sad, sad little man.

At 6'3", 220, it appears that you can't distinguish "little" from "large", but then again, you can't tell "hot" from "cold".

Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

What questions went unanswered ?[/size][/color]

My reply 9 & 12. You find were I stated 'Turf Temperature'.

Sad, sad, sad Patrick.......

[Patrick_Mucci]

What questions went unanswered ?[/size][/color]

My reply 9 & 12. You find were I stated 'Turf Temperature'.

Sad, sad, sad Patrick.......

Yikes, I didn't think anyone could be that stupid.

See if you can figure this out

If water at 86 degrees F cools off the turf, is the turf temperature:

A.    Lower than 86 F

B.    86 F

C.    Higher than 86 F

Take your time now, don't rush.
And let us know if you need any clues.

You also failed to cite any questions you claimed that I failed to answer.
Absent the production of those questions I can only conclude that you were lying

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

I talked about rootzone temp not turf. Duhh

Shame you just can not admit being wrong. Won't bother reading the crap you write.

Have a nice life

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I talked about rootzone temp not turf. Duhh

Duhh ?    You moron, they're the same thing !

Shame you just can not admit being wrong.

I certainly won't admit I'm wrong when I'm NOT wrong, as in this case.

Won't bother reading the crap you write.

The "crap" you reference is the cold hard facts that make you look like a fool.
I can understand why you wouldn't want to read those facts, because they refute your absurd position.

Have a nice life

I do and will.

So, it's your stated position that there's no correlation between the root zone temperature and the turf temperature.

What do you think the differential is, in inches and in temperature, between the rootzone and the turf ?

Now, to help you in answering that question, I'm going to supply you with the definition of the word "turf"

"TURF" :   Grass and the surface layer of earth held together by it's roots"

Let me repeat the definition of "turf" in case you misread it.

"Grass and the surface layer of earth held together BY IT'S ROOTS".

Do you want to reconsider your reply/ies now that you've been educated as to the definition of the word "turf" ?

You certainly qualify to be the guest of honor at the next dinner gathering of morons
 

[Ian Larson]

"I talked about rootzone temp not turf. Duhh"

"Duhh ?    You moron, they're the same thing !"



....since when have root zone temperatures ever been the same as canopy temperatures?

[Patrick_Mucci]

"I talked about rootzone temp not turf. Duhh"

"Duhh ?    You moron, they're the same thing !"



....since when have root zone temperatures ever been the same as canopy temperatures?

Ian,

Do you equate the definition of the two words,  "canopy" and "turf" ?

Or are you referencing a course you're familiar with in one of the rain forests ?

[Ian Larson]

"I talked about rootzone temp not turf. Duhh"

"Duhh ?    You moron, they're the same thing !"



....since when have root zone temperatures ever been the same as canopy temperatures?

Ian,

Do you equate the definition of the two words,  "canopy" and "turf" ?

Or are you referencing a course you're familiar with in one of the rain forests ?

Patrick,

If you don't understand that turf has a canopy where it's environment is completely different than the environment of a root zone then you might want to go back and study Turf 101 and actually pass it. Temperatures and moisture in the turf canopy differ greatly than in the root zone. It's not the same thing. You're wrong and prove that more and more with each post you make.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"I talked about rootzone temp not turf. Duhh"

"Duhh ?    You moron, they're the same thing !"

....since when have root zone temperatures ever been the same as canopy temperatures?

Ian,

Do you equate the definition of the two words,  "canopy" and "turf" ?

Or are you referencing a course you're familiar with in one of the rain forests ?

Patrick,

If you don't understand that turf has a canopy where it's environment is completely different than the environment of a root zone then you might want to go back and study Turf 101 and actually pass it.

Ian, before that happens, perhaps you should take a refresher course in the English language.

You might want to reference "Webster's Dictionary" or the "Oxford Dictionary" or the "Collins English Dictionary"  or the "American Heritage Dictionary" or

Your interpretation of the word "canopy" is counter to that of the English speaking world.

Perhaps you don't understand nomenclature.

Now, if you're talking about the "leaf zone", that's a seperate area from the turf or root zone.



Temperatures and moisture in the turf canopy differ greatly than in the root zone.

"Canopy" is the wrong term, leaf area/zone would be a more accurate word/term.

With a root zone temperature of 86 degrees F, would the leaf area/zone be:

1.     Cooler
2      The same
3      Hotter

Take your time on this.

And, since the root zone depth can vary, if the root zone temperature was at 86 degrees F, what would the differential in temperature be at the leaf zone/area when the depth differential is:

1     2 inches
2     4 inches
3     6 inches
4     8 inches

Assume a Northeastern location.  Say, Bethpage, NY,



It's not the same thing.

NO ONE, repeat, NO ONE, said that the rootzone/turf is the same thing as the leaf zone/area.
You're the only one making that moronic statement.

You're wrong and prove that more and more with each post you make.

Each post I made proved Jon wrong, with facts, not bluster.

Your declaration that I'm wrong is hollow.
Tell me, with detailed specificity, what am I wrong about ?

Jon didn't even know that the root zone and turf are the same basic area, except that turf, includes the grass.
Now, you're trying to equate the grass with the root  zone.  And you claim that I'm wrong ?
You're a seriously confused man.

[Ian Larson]

"Patrick,

I talked about rootzone temp not turf. Duhh

Duhh ?    You moron, they're the same thing !"


Are those not your own words calling them the same? ^

And not only does every person with a basic turf knowledge know that there is a canopy...called a canopy and NOT the "leaf zone", so do the experts...of which you are the opposite. As I was looking for turf canopy in the dictionary I flipped by "moron" and saw your picture

http://www.usga.org/ourexpertsexplain.aspx?id=21474848203

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Patrick,

I talked about rootzone temp not turf. Duhh

Duhh ?    You moron, they're the same thing !"

Are those not your own words calling them the same? ^

The salutation and first sentence is Jon's.
The second sentence is mine.

And, the rootzone and turf encompass the same areas.

I'll provide the definition for you again.

"Grass and the SURFACE LAYER OF EARTH HELD TOGETHER BY IT'S ROOTS".


And not only does every person with a basic turf knowledge know that there is a canopy...called a canopy and NOT the "leaf zone", so do the experts...of which you are the opposite.

Then why is the title of the article: "Experts Explain: Cooling TURF With Fans"  ?

Notice the word "Turf" Not Canopy.

Why isn't the title of the article, "Cooling the Canopy With Fans" ?

Trying to defend Jon's absurd error by diverting the focus won't work.
Turf and Rootzone convey the same general meaning.

Now, why haven't you addressed the questions I posed ?

You stated that there was a great difference between the temperature in the rootzone and the canopy.
So, what is that difference when the rootzone is at 86 F ?


As I was looking for turf canopy in the dictionary I flipped by "moron" and saw your picture

Is that the picture where I'm standing next to you and pointing a finger at you ?  The one where you're wearing a dunce cap ?

http://www.usga.org/ourexpertsexplain.aspx?id=21474848203

[Ian Larson]

If you want to fabricate an argument over the definition of turf go ahead. I'm pretty sure people with turf degrees know the definition of turf. But there are several different parts to turf that have different characteristics and environments. It doesn't take a moron to know that by "turf" Jon meant the canopy, not the root zone. And you are acting like an asshole trying to win an argument saying its all the same. And it's not. The environment of the canopy is completely different from the root zone. The title uses turf because your not just cooling the canopy but also down into the root zone.

And I don't expect you to admit you're wrong about your moronic stance that "canopy" is not the right word that you conveniently left out of your last post of garbage.

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