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Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« on: May 16, 2013, 08:26:13 PM »
How strategic can or will the course play?  w/high rough, narrow ribbons of short grass

Will it matter what side of the closely mowed area (commonly know as fairway) approach shots are played?

There do not seem to be any bail out areas? or are the bunkers relatively tame?

What other questions?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 08:24:42 AM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Sam Morrow

Re: Us Open at Merion, what do expect?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2013, 08:31:49 PM »
I expect the website to explode.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what do expect?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2013, 09:56:13 PM »
Carl,
The bunkers can be hellish, which is good, because they're supposed to be hazards.

JeffTodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what do expect?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2013, 11:01:05 PM »
I hope and expect to see a great tournament this year. I fear a layup fest, and hope for a shot-making orgy. It's overkill on a site like this to say it's a brilliant golf course. At the end of the day I just hope its brilliance is obvious to the players and fans who are engaged in the event.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what do expect?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2013, 11:23:22 PM »
Carl,

I'm not sure if its really a strategy, but the primary focus for the players will be choosing what club to use to keep the ball in the fairways. It'll be an absolute must if you are going to be in contention. I really don't think the fairways are wide enough for guys to try and set up any better angles.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what do expect?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2013, 07:48:19 AM »
Unless the course is brick hard with greens stimping above 14 feet, the pros will bomb and gouge their way to record low scoring. Fifty may break par but the media and the USGA will spout platitudes about the genius of the course. It's Merion, after all. Hallowed ground on the East Coast. Despite that cynical tone, I'm still thinking it may make for compelling theater on television.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom ORourke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what do expect?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2013, 08:22:03 AM »
Few drivers, some low rounds, a good number of 3 putts and doubles, -13 the winning score. Angles are still the key at Merion and guys who can not hit fairways will struggle to make birdies on the final five. I think #5 will be the hardest hole without the left rough to keep balls out of the creek, and the slickest green I have ever hit into.

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2013, 11:10:15 AM »
On which holes do they even hit driver?
2? 5 or 6? 14? 15? 18?

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2013, 11:30:02 AM »
Will Merion be remembered more favorably if all the big names are in contention and there are tons of low scores?  Or is it better to have a no name win and scores be at +1 or even?


Jeff Dawson

Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2013, 12:04:18 PM »
On which holes do they even hit driver?
2? 5 or 6? 14? 15? 18?

2 Probably but not necessarily
4 Less likely
5 Likely
6 Likely
14 Most Likely but not all
15 Most Likely but not all
18 Most Likely but not all

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2013, 12:11:47 PM »
Terry,

I doubt you'll see bomb and gouge (rough is too severe) and I doubt you'll see greens at 14+ (They would be unplayable at anywhere near that speed). I also don't think the course needs to be brick hard to avoid low scoring records.  It'll need to play firm, but not over the top.

Michael,

I would expect to see drivers used by many players on holes: 2, 4, 5, 6, 12 (depending on tee used), 14, 18.

Emile Bonfiglio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2013, 12:32:06 PM »
What do I expect...A man with 14 majors bunting a 13 degree Nike Covert 3 wood around a tight course and ending round 3 with a 5 stroke lead...and screams of "mashed potatoes"
You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2013, 12:47:51 PM »
What do I expect...A man with 14 majors bunting a 13 degree Nike Covert 3 wood around a tight course and ending round 3 with a 5 stroke lead...and screams of "mashed potatoes"

Emile,

In Philly, we don't yell "mashed potatoes". You might hear a "Cheesesteaks" or two though.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 12:51:43 PM by JSlonis »

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2013, 01:05:13 PM »
I am polishing up my " Yo Adrianne".  Guess that will get my butt booted off the premises?? 8)
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2013, 01:27:49 PM »
I'm not sure Tiger is the favourite - not because he isn't the best golfer in the field (he is), but because when fairways get that narrow, when strategic thinking and preferred angles lose much of their meaning/relevance, when putting becomes mostly about speed control, and when little imagination (just execution) is required for green-side chips, a golfer like Tiger Woods loses much of his advantage over the rest of the field. It's not that the course/course set up will hurt Tiger or that he'll drop back to the pack, it's that the set-up will help a lot of golfers and a (large) pack to compete and get closer to him than they normally might (or should, talent wise). What this does to the old mantra about 'identifying the best golfer' is to flip it totally upside down, which I guess shouldn't be surprising given that a whole lot has changed in the game since the USGA first fell in love many years ago with the narrow fairways-high rough-hard/fast greens approach to testing the world's best players. To me, the irony of people like David Fay proudly taking credit for getting the Open back to Merion is that, far from highlighting the crucial role that classic design/architecture played for so many decades in determing true champions and great courses, this choice of venues actually redefines all the key concepts, i.e. classic design/architecture, true champions, and great courses.  (Of course, as Terry suggests, this will not stop most of the media from spouting those very same terms/platitudes.) Most unfortunately, I think, it redefines those concepts while also engaging in a bit of sleight-of-hand and misdirection -- with Fay suggesting that the Merion US Open will be a 'referendum on length', when actually it is a referendum on the USGA's traditional goals and set-up approach.  

Peter
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 01:47:17 PM by PPallotta »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2013, 01:50:43 PM »
I'm not sure Tiger is the favourite - not because he isn't the best golfer in the field (he is), but because when fairways get that narrow, when strategic thinking and preferred angles lose much of their meaning/relevance, when putting becomes mostly about speed control, and when little imagination (just execution) is required for green-side chips, a golfer like Tiger Woods loses much of his advantage over the rest of the field. It's not that the course/course set up will hurt Tiger or that he'll drop back to the pack, it's that the set-up will help a lot of golfers and a (large) pack to compete and get closer to him than they normally might (or should, talent wise). What this does to the old mantra about 'identifying the best golfer' is to flip it totally upside down, which I guess shouldn't be surprising given that a whole lot has changed in the game since the USGA first fell in love many years ago with the narrow fairways-high rough-hard/fast greens approach to testing the world's best players. To me, the irony of people like David Fay proudly taking credit for getting the Open back to Merion is that, far from highlighting the crucial role that classic design/architecture played for so many decades in determing true champions and great courses, this choice of venues actually redefines all the key concepts, i.e. design/architecture, true champions, and great courses.  Most unfortunately, it redefines those concepts while also engaging in a bit of sleight-of-hand and misdirection -- with Fay suggesting that the Merion US Open will be a 'referendum on length', when actually it is a referendum on the USGA's traditional goals and set-up approach.  

Peter

Peter,
I think the set up highly favors Tiger because as I see it, driver will be effectively taken out of the players' hands on almost every  hole. Tiger is superb when hitting less than driver; the field has an advantage over Tiger when driver is the play.

I also think Tiger is one of the best distance putters that I have ever seen. For years I have been amazed at how close to the hole he leaves his true lag putts.

Terry,

I played Merion last year. Players may try bombing but the "gouging" part will not work. I don't see how they will be able to consistently hit greens from that rough.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 01:54:46 PM by Bill Brightly »

Michael Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2013, 01:54:52 PM »
Doesn't Tiger become more of a favorite due to all players having the driver taken out of their hands?  I think his status as the premier iron player in the world (those are the words of 2 players in the top 10 in the world that I deal with through my work-not my own opinion) makes him even more of a favorite than he will be according to Las Vegas.  

I was at the Players last week in Ponte Vedra Beach and I asked one player that I'll put in the medium length category about his prep round at Merion, the one nugget I was most interested in was he thinks he will take a run at 10 every day and expects the entire field to, the longer players doing so with 3 wood or less.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2013, 06:21:31 PM »
Well lets just hope the USGA doesn't cut the rough too low.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2013, 07:45:54 PM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Charlie Gallagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2013, 08:53:16 AM »
   I've had the good fortune to Play Merion 15 times, the last one two years ago. They were already working the transformation towards the Open. Some of the changes were jarring, especially the new tees shoehorned into the property. I thought several greens, 11, 12, and 15 come to mind, didn't have enough hole locations, though I understand 12 and 15 have had adjustment made to the greens to remedy that problem.
   Someone above mentioned the penal nature of Merion's bunkers and I concur. At the East course for mere mortals, such as myself, anything less than crisply executed anywhere on the course is a half shot penalty. A poor shot is at least a one stroke penalty, and in some cases, more than that.
   I will be interested to see how great players strategize on certain holes. For instance, what if the USGA moves the tee box up on 7, will anyone pull driver with ob barely off the right side of the green? Given the length of 4, do you hit driver there, or do you concede it to be a three shot hole and hit a shorter club to get into the fairway? Will anyone try to hit driver on 1 and attempt to cut it into that green? I will be interested to see what strategy is chosen to try for advantage. I think angle strategy has been limited due to the narrow ribbons the USGA calls fairways at the East, too bad.
    Going to be fun to watch, especially if the rain holds off over the next several weeks so the course gets very firm. When those greens and fairways get crusty, look out. Gouging short shots out of that rough is going to be trying, even for great players.  272 for a winning score?  It will depend on the weather, alot.
   

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2013, 01:03:10 PM »
GCAers all over the place
AKA Mayday

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2013, 08:51:37 PM »
I'm not sure Tiger is the favourite - not because he isn't the best golfer in the field (he is), but because when fairways get that narrow, when strategic thinking and preferred angles lose much of their meaning/relevance, when putting becomes mostly about speed control, and when little imagination (just execution) is required for green-side chips, a golfer like Tiger Woods loses much of his advantage over the rest of the field. It's not that the course/course set up will hurt Tiger or that he'll drop back to the pack, it's that the set-up will help a lot of golfers and a (large) pack to compete and get closer to him than they normally might (or should, talent wise). What this does to the old mantra about 'identifying the best golfer' is to flip it totally upside down, which I guess shouldn't be surprising given that a whole lot has changed in the game since the USGA first fell in love many years ago with the narrow fairways-high rough-hard/fast greens approach to testing the world's best players. To me, the irony of people like David Fay proudly taking credit for getting the Open back to Merion is that, far from highlighting the crucial role that classic design/architecture played for so many decades in determing true champions and great courses, this choice of venues actually redefines all the key concepts, i.e. classic design/architecture, true champions, and great courses.  (Of course, as Terry suggests, this will not stop most of the media from spouting those very same terms/platitudes.) Most unfortunately, I think, it redefines those concepts while also engaging in a bit of sleight-of-hand and misdirection -- with Fay suggesting that the Merion US Open will be a 'referendum on length', when actually it is a referendum on the USGA's traditional goals and set-up approach.  

Peter

Peter:

I think this is mostly......wrong. ;)

I don't know whether Tiger should be considered the favorite at Merion, given how it will be set up. But Tiger's proved one thing during his career, and it's that he can win majors under almost any kind of set up:

-- Ultra hard: Arguably all three of his US Open wins, which have seen all of one other player in those fields combined break par;
-- Ultra easy: PGA, Valhalla, 2000; PGA, Medinah, 2006;
-- Ultra fast and firm (which narrows fairways arguably just as much as high, pinched rough): Open Championship, Hoylake, 2006;
-- Ultra conducive to driver after driver off the tee: Masters, 1997 certainly, and probably 2001 and 2002 as well.

I think folks tend to over-estimate whether a particular major set-up impacts the odds of a specific player.

I think folks tend to under-estimate whether a particular course, regardless of its set-up, fits a particular player's game and -- with a nod to another current thread -- fits his eye (the "horses for courses" theory). It's hard to look at Jack's record at Augusta, Pebble Beach and Baltusrol -- and Tiger's record at Augusta, TOC, and Medinah -- and not think those courses have a special appeal to those players.

I think folks tend to over-estimate how reliable players are in majors, and under-estimate how fickle the game is generally, and particularly so in majors. Jack Fleck, Orville Moody, George Archer, Shaun Micheel, Rich Beem, Todd Hamilton, and a lot of others provide testament to the game's nature.


ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2013, 06:49:16 PM »
As stated above, it will depend on the weather, although I don't think softer, wet greens will result in an all-out birdie fest.

The rough is incredible even now and the mowers are only being used in the fairways.  Wet rough of that depth will (to some degree) offset receptive greens - though not entirely.

I am especially hoping for bone dry conditions in order to confirm my contention that the work on the 12th and 15th greens was necessary and, therefore, an excellent thing to have done.

Also, such conditions will allow me to determine whether my position that the fifth green should have received the same treatment is correct or not.  If those guys are REALLY THAT GOOD, then I will be both incorrect and in awe of their skills.

And yes, GCA will explode with threads and posts.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2013, 06:56:30 PM »
Chip,

I haven't heard any commentary on it yet, but I have to imagine the 5th green will be maintained slower than the rest. I hate the practice but if they're hoping for greens in excess of 12 feet that one will be a disaster on the order of Shinnecock's 7th in '04.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Us Open at Merion, what to expect?
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2013, 07:35:24 PM »
 8) ;D :D ;)

A couple friends played  Merion recently  and said the rough is high , fairways super narrow and quite firm .  Obviously if the fairways get firm the rough will be more formidable as there is no first cut , or so I've been led to believe.

Lots of speculation on scoring but I'm setting the over under at -8. 

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