What should be the distance limits for par 4 and 5

[Jeff_Brauer]

Reading the 8000 yard thread, and others, it strikes me that the 485 yard par 4 limit is probably too short in the modern age.  Putting aside your desires for a shorter ball, or competition ball (hard for some to do, I know) should the USGA expand the par 4 maximum length?

IF the USGA decides to expand it, and assuming marginal growth or mandated topping out of ball length from here out, what do you think should be the maximum par 4 limit and the minimum length for par 5 holes?

Certainly, 500 is a mathematically convenient divider, but is that too short for current conditions?  Even good club players can probably reach most 525 yard par 5's regularly in two, no?  (280 drives/250 3 Woods)  If you designed for pros, 550 may not be out of the question, but that seems unrealistic to me.

What say ye?

[ForkaB]

What I can't understand is why the USGA has to get into the act.  There is nothing in the rules that I know of that relates to "par."  Competitions are in relation to relative or specific performance against other players, not "par."  Even handicaps are based on course ratings which are only loosely based on "par."

I think golf course owners can and should call "par" whatever they want to, just like Willie Nelson.  

[BCrosby]

Given the rougly 10% increase in distance since the mid-80's, increase the limit by the same 10%.

That puts the par 4 max at 533 yards. And even that might not be long enough to force pros to hit mid/long iron approach shots.

Note the clubs they were hitting last week at Houston into even longer par 5's.

Nutty. Silly. I can't believe we are talking about these kinds of numbers.    

Bob

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

Given the nature of altitude there can be no real "set" distance because of the way the ball flies in the immediate Denver area versus that of playing along sites at sea level.

I agree with redanman who opined that golf in the Rockies can be quite difficult to plan a concrete and worthy test because of the way the ball literally jumps off the face of the club. The challenge becomes crafting a design that thoroughly understands the given location of a particular course.

I do know that Rick Phelps is designing a course just north of Pueblo in excess of 8,000 yards and I can't comment on the merits of the course as of yet, but I don't see why a superior design should not have the kind of "elasticity" to deal with today's game.

When the USGA put forward the yardage guide for holes I believe one has to look at those numbers with this in mind -- topography really influences the nature of what the "par" will be for a given hole. If memory serves the "old" 10th at ANGC played for a time 485 yards while the par-5 13th played for quite a long time at 465 yards. Clearly, the issue of topography determined the nature of the par in those instances. Even the 17th at TOC was a par-5 for a time -- right?

Let me also mention that architects today are becoming a bit more sophisticated in their thinking. Today, you have long uphill par-4's in order to promote the usage of the long iron or even wood approach (Pete Dye favors this) -- years ago such holes would have be considered torture chambers or slogs.

You also have such keen creations such as the original 18 at Forest Highlands. In this case Tom Weiskopf and his then partner Jay Moorish understood the nature of high altitude golf and offered a series of holes that accentuated par-3 and par-5 combinations in order to avoid having a predominance of pedestrian par-4 holes that are defeated at the outset by the altitude.

Any course that is built today -- unless it is geared exclusively for a narrow range of clientele -- needs to have built-in elasticity because the demands of the course need to be flexibile to handle the skills of the players today and to provide appropriate design balance when weather conditions warrant.

[ChasLawler]

Hasn't the USGA been breaking its own rules in the US Open for quite a while now. Aren't there plenty of courses out there today with par 4's extending beyond the USGA's 485 yard limit? Does the USGA do anything about that - honestly?

Is the 485 yard mark a limit or just a suggestion? If it's merely just a suggestion, what's the significance in the first place?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Redanman,

Maybe cattle prods will be the next golfer "amenity", to push the walkers along faster!

[JohnV]

Shivas,

While I would agree that the best amateur golfers hit it more than 250 yards off the tee and 220 on subsequent shots, that is the what is used in course rating.  The Course Rating is supposed to be what the field at the US Amateur should average in the stroke play portion of the championship.  Every year, a group of master raters come to the site and rate the course a day or two before the Amateur begins.  Every year for at least 10 years, the course rating they come up with has been within .1 of the average score of the field.  Seems like it validates the concept even if every player in the field is averaging over 250 on their tee shots.  This might be a case where multiple wrongs make a right, but as long as it works I'm not too bothered by that.

Jeff, the actual limits are 250 yards for par 3s and 470 yards for par 4's.  But, those numbers can be modified when conditions allow it.  For example the 10th hole at Augusta is so much downhill that it has alway been played as a 4 even though it was over 470 yards.

Since par is really a "meaningless" number anyway, why do we care what yardages are used.

A while ago, a USGA GHIN employee told the following story as an introduction to a seminar.

He said he was at a club talking with the pro and asked why the 156 yard downhill first hole was listed as a par 5 on the scorecard.  The pro replied that he just wanted the players to feel that they got off to a good start when they made a 4.

[mike_beene]

I may be wrong,but doesn't the USGA rule book contain some rules for Stableford scoring.Par does matter in that instance doesn't it?

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

The USGA upped the par 4 limit to 485 yards about 1997.

[JohnV]

Jeff, according to the current edition of the USGA Handicap Manual, Section 16 the following are the yardages for par.

Men:
3 up to 250
4 251 to 470
5 471 to 690
6 690 and over

Women
3 up to 210
4 211 to 400
5 400 to 590
6 591 and over

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff,

I remember them TALKING ABOUT changing the standard to 485 yards a while back ... they've certainly gone to 480-490 for the U.S. Open ... but I've never seen anything above 470 in print.

I think 500 yards is probably the correct number today, assuming no more slippage, but 500 yards today plays shorter than 470 did twenty years ago.

Matt W -

Part of the reason I say 500 yards is because on rolling topography, it just isn't practical to get tees from 520 yards all the way up to less than 400 yards and get a good vantage point from all places.  This idea that you can just stretch out the holes to any length you want just doesn't work ... for tees, some places work better than others.  

It's true of placing middle tees as well, which some people don't seem to understand ... you'd like to have a hole play 350 from the whites, but because of the topo you have to choose either 380 or 325.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom and John,

Well, my mistake then.  I remember (as a USGA green committee man) getting an in house flyer saying it was imminent.  I guess they never followed through, although for the life of me, I can't understand why.

It really does present a mathematical problem in laying out golf holes with the traditional centerline method.  If it is still 470, you have to use 800 and 600 feet to max out two shots on a par 4, and we all know that from the championship tees, that 850/900 feet and 700/750 feet is more realistic for the best players.  By that standard, a par 5 lower limit shoud be 515 to 550, but the variance between the top players and the rest of us means it should be about 500 yards.

[Scott Seward]

The AVERAGE drive as measured at the US Amateur is actually coming out at around 267, so yes there could be some adjustment. But remember, this will alter any classic golf course's par.

These limitations are set for course rating purposes. Right now, the rating system still is able to predict what the average score of the US AM field will shoot before the event commences (all US AM courses are rated right before the tournament). Also remember that as these guidelines are set with amateur handicapping in mind, they could care less about what the professionls do. The handicap system is not set up for them. Certainly at some point the distances will change but it is not as much of a problem as people make ou to be.

[Forrest Richardson]

I say the more we can do to challenge the USGA's guidelines the better. 385-yards par-5...yes! 490-yards, par-4.....yes! 299-yards par-3.....yes! 225-yards par-4.....of course!