[Patrick_Mucci]

incorporated into more par 4's and par 5's ?

The Short, Eden, Biarritz, Redan would seem ideally suited for par 4's and par 5's, but you rarely see them

The par 4 1st at The Creek is an excellent Redan green, although the hole is short by today's standards and the angle of approach from the fairway slightly different than that of the Redan at NGLA.

Nonetheless, it works quite well and offers plenty of challenge on the approach and recovery.

The "Eden" green works well at # 7 at TOC, so why hasn't it been replicated on par 4's and par 5's in the U.S. ?

Why was there a conceptual disconnect when it came to par 4's and par 5's.

[Bill Brightly]

OK. let's break down the specific characteristics of each hole:

"Short." The largest green on the shortest hole, but the green is divided into many different sections. Lots of architects designed large multi-sectioned greens that test your ability to accurately hit an iron to the proper section. Clearly a Daok feature, but Tom will not copy the distinctive "circle the green with bunkers" pattern.

Eden. Putting aside the very specific bunker pattern: pot bunker Strath, deep Hill bunker, and short right shelley bunker, the most distinctive feature is the significant back-to-front pitch of the green. Thousands of greens have this feature, far more than greens that run away from the player. The Strath bunker, a small pot bunker shaded to one side of the green, is also a fairly common feature. So is a scary Hill-type bunker. A short right (shelley) bunkering to one side of the green is nothing unusual. But if you copy all of these features, you might as well do what William Gordon did, and build a proper Eden par 3 built to exact specifications. Even Raynor and Banks could not bring themselves to do this.

Redan. There are plenty of kick mounds near greens. I can't think of any combined with the angled, steep-faced Redan bunker. But my guess is that if an architect wants to build a true Redan approach to the green, he would build it on a par 3 and make it a true tribute hole.

Biarritz. This is easily the most distinctive (odd) bunkering pattern that is unique to the MacRaynor school. IMO< it is easy to understand why architects would stay away from it on par 4's and 5's. First of all, if an architect attempted to copy this second shot look on the same scale as Macdonald, Raynor and Banks, he is taking a great risk. Let's be frank, the hole looks strange. If you are going to build it, it HAS to be on a par three. However, the use of a swale leading up to a green is somewhat common, as is random bunkering and other hazards designed to catch wayward low running shots.

You might find it interesting that Perry Maxwell designed a Biarritz on a par 4 at Saucon Valley Old by altering Herbert Strong's routing. Strong built a par four on Hole 11, then a Biarritz tribute on Hole 12. Maxwell shortened the 11th to a nice downhill par 3, and the 12th became a dogleft par 4 and he left the Biarritz green. The green itself is much smaller than a typical 75 yard deep Biarritz, but it is clearly Maxwell's nod to the concept.

[V. Kmetz]

My figuring is that the Template Par 3 greens best elicit their shot values from a stable teeing ground and would diminish if they had to be approached from random spots up to 15/20 degrees left or right of center.

A "traditional" Biarritz values the shot that carries a straight, low, chasing flight and skipping release when it hits the front pad.  This "shot value" is decayed if you have to approach it from an angle. left or right as is likely on a two or three shot hole.

A traditional Redan (R-L variety) values the precise clubbing and judgement of shot power to the front right portion, where if properly executed, will feed/massage the ball gently into the depth of a green that slopes away to its back left.  If this were to be found on a par 4 or 5 and the player was left, this "kick" element is somewhat neutralized and now the shot's "value" is shifted to an aerial one over the maw of the pit hazard protecting a thin elevated green behind it. If a player was twenty or so degrees right playing to this R-L Redan he's screwed and that contour is no longer operating to be utilized, but to be avoided because there's no strategy to play over it.

A traditional Eden values the proper distance judgment of an aerial shot -- if not also its straightness as it must be threaded between Hill and Strath.  The more that windy conditions thwart both those judgments, the more traditional the Eden.  I don't know if this test can be made, and this shot value retained, if the player might come from the rough at an angle to cap off a Par 4 or 5.

As Bill said, the various iterations of a Short hole ARE indeed present (if unintentionally) in many sorts of length holes all over...the division of greens into thirds and quadrants, well-moguled, occurs regularly.

So, for me it's the element that the "test" or measurement of a shot skill by a Template Par 3 necessitates play coming from the same, stable, teeing area.  The value of a Template 3's particular shots is muted or altogether unavailable if play must come from random spots.

I also think the reverse has some traction in truth as the blindness of all Punchbowls and most Alps don't serve the one shot hole demands very well. Those green sites usually bear, nay invite, play from a greater variety of approach positions. A Cape Par 3 (also frequently seen) loses the two-part interdependence with the tee shot and makes that one approach shot both static and aerial.

That said, I think a pretty demanding par 3 could be made out of the Road Hole second shot...150-165 yards from the left side of the 17 TOC fairway...if you think about it, isn't that what Golden Bell #12 at ANGC is? flipped to short left-long right on the diagonal?

cheers

vk

[Mike_Trenham]

On the other side of the equation, why so few Road Hole greens on par threes?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

Good question. I am with vk on this one, as I think the concept shots sort of replace angle strategy on those holes. 

That said, I have used short, biaritz and even Redan holes on other than par 3 holes.  Raynor did, too, from time to time.  He has a hole named "Par 4 Redan" (I think) at Blue Mound.

It seems like the run on shots could work with driveable par 4 or reachable par 5 (Redan, Biaritz) and the short might work for a short par 3 or 4, maybe a long par 5, although, given how much play spreads out, that is risky for speed of play.  But, if you use it on a par 3, you CAN control the distance players are actually itting to the green.

[Bill_McBride]

The right half of the green for 7 and 11 on the Old Course does not have the characteristics that define the Eden hole.  The slopes from back to front and left to right are not nearly as steep.   As a result you can't really call the 7th portion of the green an "Eden" green. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

On the other side of the equation, why so few Road Hole greens on par threes?

Mike,

That green "works" as a par 3 green, or a par 4 and par 5 green, from ANY angle.

It has to be one of the best conceived greens in golf as it retains an interesting challenge from any one of 360 degrees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer and VK,

I see the point regarding specific angles of attack as a par 3, possibly being lost on par 4's and par 5's, especially with the Biarritz and Redan, but the Short and Eden would seem to have more diversity in terms of approaches.

The Eden was designed for multiple approaches, albeit, not from the back of the green.

On the Short, that can almost be approached from any one of 360 degrees.

One has to wonder, at what angle do the Biarritz and Redan cease being functional...... as intended.

I would guess, if they're large enough, they might retain elements of their function as the angles of attack vary.

[V. Kmetz]

Pat,

It's little-seen or discussed, but the Biarritz at (imo) the most interesting of the Template courses - Blind Brook- (Raynor 1917-18) exhibits something of the "angle-change" you are wondering about.

At this hole the real "Biarritz" play is more like a "Reverse (L-R) Redan" where success is determined by playing into the left half of an unstable front pad (by "unstable" I mean it's not uniform, but "moguled")

When i get to my home computer later in the day, I'll try to place a marked up Google Earth photo to more clearly demonstrate what I mean.

cheers

vk

[V. Kmetz]

Also, I think it is agreed that "Short" hole green designs are found in many types of Par 4 and 5 holes; they are not as exclusive to the Template holes as are the others.

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

Also, I think it is agreed that "Short" hole green designs are found in many types of Par 4 and 5 holes; they are not as exclusive to the Template holes as are the others.

I'm not so sure of that.

How many elevated greens, entirely surrounded by a moat bunker do you encounter on non-CBM-SR-CB par 4's and 5's ?

And how many of them have the internal horseshoe spine or the segmented tiers ?

cheers

vk

[V. Kmetz]

I'm trying to compile a worthy list of few t oa dozen that we all might know a bit from experience or tournament play...

I'll get back later on this

cheers

vk

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