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Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 19 Posted
« on: May 11, 2013, 10:00:36 PM »
Strategic design is alive at Kinloch.  Man-made features sit naturally on the land to create decisions that force the golfer to consider the overt man-made hazards and then to question his decision once his ball has reacted with the land.  The type of golf course that one must play many times to understand.  I can imagine spending a few days on property playing the course over and over would bring the golf course and its strategies to life.  I know there are several shots I hope I have the opportunity to play again.

The level of green contour was, to me, surprising.  When one considers many of today's top modern designs, they have several, if not many, greens that border on unfair.  I think Lester designed Kinloch's greens to be played FAST.  Their tilts are subtle and for the most part there is little internal contour.  Of course, there are exceptions -- the plateau on the 4th green, the spine on the 6th green, the rolls on the 12th green -- but the greens would (I think) be fairly uninteresting if they aren't firm/fast.

I have read that the main criticism of Kinloch is that there are simply TOO MANY split fairway type holes.  I think we all know that the split-fairway hole is a very difficult one to execute well as all too often there is only a single realistic option and a second fairway that is maintained without reason.  Of course, one would have to play these holes more than just once to really understand them, but I think the split fairway holes at Kinloch are ALL very well done.  Equally important, pin position dictates the importance of picking a line.

On to the photo tour...








Handsome cabins complete with lit putting green:




The approach to the up and over first:




An excellent 'bottle hole' at the second, where a trio of bunkers splits the fairway.  Playing to the left leaves an at-grade approach up the throat of the the green:




The mid-length par-5 3rd as seen from behind:




The 4th is clearly driveable for some and the decision to play left or right will be dictated by pin position.  On this day a hybrid to the right left a simple sand wedge approach into the tilt of the green:




The uphill par-3 5th:




The par-4 6th is a forced lay-up for most, but the golfer must choose whether to lay-up right for the preferred angle or whether to challenge the narrower left portion of the fairway to leave a shorter approach:




The par-3 7th can stretch to north of 230 yards, but plays to a more manageable 190 yards from the 6,500 yard set of tees:




The 8th is a long par-4 where the grade of the fairway creates a speed-slot for golfers taking the bold line from the tee:




An all-carry approach is required at the 8th as a steep false-front is unforgiving:




Options, options, options at the par-5 9th!  Golfers hoping to reach the green in two will want to challenge the narrow right fairway; those planning on playing the hole as a three-shotter are fine playing left:




The 9th from behind:

« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 07:06:13 PM by Mark Saltzman »

Dan Byrnes

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Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2013, 10:04:33 PM »
I loved the place when I visited there for a couple days a few years ago.  Everything I would want in a place to be a member. Just too far away.

Dan

Andy Troeger

Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2013, 11:46:33 PM »
I haven't been there, but I really like the look of it! Thanks for posting.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 09:53:11 AM »
When I played Pinehurst No. 2 a few months ago with a Golf Digest rater, he couldn't stop raving about Kinloch (and Ballyhack, for that matter). He was adamant that it's a top five or ten modern design.

I really don't know much about the course beyond his rave review, so I'm watching this tour with interest. I really like the look of the shaping and bunkering, though it's not at all what I had pictured it looking like in my own mind. Thanks for this one, Mark.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2013, 10:01:39 AM »
This course and facility are amazing.  Best short game practice area I have seen to date.  The course is also a great test, and is as beautiful a place as you will see in the fall.  I would love to be a member there, if only I weren't in Colorado.

As an aside.........I agree with the note from above re: gold digest rater top 5 or 10 modern.  Not quite sure why it doesn't get more love from Golfweek??

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 10:12:33 AM »
One of the best golf experiences in the country, on one of the best conditioned courses in the world. It's a Top 5 course/experience for me.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 10:24:58 AM »
One of the best golf experiences in the country, on one of the best conditioned courses in the world.

+1

I was at Kinloch the Friday / Saturday of the Masters and then drove down to Augusta to attend the final round. As I walked across 15 fairway I noted that the fairway looked a little shaggy compared to where I'd just been. ;) The folks at Kinloch nailed it, from the developer to the architect to the management and staff. I know a couple of members and they nailed it as well (with their decision to join)!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 06:57:47 PM »
I've never felt poorer than at Kinloch. The staff was very welcoming, the course is intriguing and I am a middle-class dude.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 01:14:00 PM »
As an aside.........I agree with the note from above re: gold digest rater top 5 or 10 modern.  Not quite sure why it doesn't get more love from Golfweek??

For what it's worth, I have heard Kinloch described as a dolled up blonde (as opposed to a dumb blonde).

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 03:00:52 PM »
I think that Kinloch is as legitimate as they come. No easy holes out there.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 03:27:15 PM »
After a long transition, the golfer reaches the long par-4 10th, which is made longer by a fairway that tilts back toward the golfer.






Another split-fairway at the short par-5 5th, that plays downhill and is reachable in two for nearly everyone.  The golfer has the option of playing the wider left side, or the narrow right, which widens over a series of bunkers.








After the reprieve at the 11th, the golfer faces another long and uphill par-4 at the 12th.  The green is one of the most severely contoured on the course.




The third par-5 in five holes at the 13th.  The golfers eye is drawn to the right, but tee shots should be played away from the Line of Instinct.  The second half of the hole plays downhill and the approach to this open-front green begs for a running shot.


Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 13 Posted
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 05:37:15 PM »
Very fetching to the eye. Might have to give Vinny Giles a call.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 13 Posted
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2013, 12:13:48 PM »
To say that I loved Kinloch would be an understatement.  It is an incredible club and course.

First, the practice facilities are as good as anywhere.  There is a large short game range that I would estimate totals 2 acres.  It is primarily fairway with several greens to hit to.  Each green offers a variety of practice shots.  The driving range is very good, but is made special with a cottage to the left, offering covered areas to hit balls in bad weather.  The covered areas also offer swing analysis equipment.  Really incredible practice facilities.

Second, the cottages are incredible.  We had 8 guys staying in an 8 bedroom cottage.  Great room has 2 tv's, pool table, very comfortable leather furniture and a stocked frig.  Great practice putting green behind the cottage with night lights for late night games.   Again, as good as I have seen. The club will cater dinner to the cottage after a long day on the course.

Third, the staff is incredibly inviting, but in a laid back way.  They are there to serve, but not to act like servants - if that makes sense - which is my ideal type of staff.  I simply don't enjoy overly formal service, but enjoyed being taken care of - which Kinloch has down.    

Lastly, the golf course is possibly the best parkland golf course that I have played.  I enjoyed it much more than many higher ranked courses.  In my opinion, it is definitely underappreciated.  It is a wonderfully rolling property that provides exciting shots on almost every hole.  Pictures simply do not do the property justice in terms of its rolling nature and beauty.  

It is playable on the first try, but becomes more enjoyable with every round.  There are options everywhere.  The tee shots get the most of attention - like on holes #2, #4, #6, #9 and #15.  However, there are some really exciting 2nd shots - like at #4, #6, #8 (my nemesis), #9, #11, #12 and #16.   Holes #9 and #16 are among my favorite that I have ever played.  The boldness and uniqueness of #9 is impossible to describe or capture in photos.  The elevation change from the fairway to green is really bold - a picture of it from Stonehouse Golf is on my wall in my home study.  While I have not played Merion, my playing partners compared it to the quarry hole.

Overall, if you get an invitation, you must go.  One of the best places in America.

One cavaet - it is a fairly difficult course for higher handicappers.  If you are a higher handicapper, make sure you play the "up tees" as there are forced carries off the tee.    
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 12:16:37 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 13 Posted
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 09:49:20 PM »
"Third, the staff is incredibly inviting, but in a laid back way.  They are there to serve, but not to act like servants - if that makes sense - which is my ideal type of staff."

One of the things that makes the place great.

Dan

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 13 Posted
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2013, 02:28:15 PM »
The course is very strategic with good width in the fairways and interesting angles for approach shots into greens.   Hilly, the course is basically walkable, especially with a caddie.  They run a shuttle around the lake between the front and back nines, which would be a pretty good hike without a ride.

The 19th hole par 3 over the lake to a perched green is a cool and unusual feature.

They seemed to identify their niche in the National Club marketplace and made it attractive for non local members to join, especially with the option to stay in the houses with foursomes.  I think they dropped the Initiation fees and dues to an appealing level, and when I was there in Oct 2011 my host told me they were in solid shape from a membership perspective.  He also mentioned that you have to be north of DC area to be non-resident.

On another GCA thread I added a post with my observation that it seemed to me they set out to create the ANGC of Virginia.  I look forward to going back.  The Outpost Club usually holds an event there and I will try to register for it in the next few years.

On a related note, I spent an afternoon in Richmond after looking at the Univ of Richmond with my daughter.   Looks like some real interesting neighborhoods downtown with good restaurants and things to do including civil war museums etc.  Richmond and Kinloch could be a nice pair for an extended weekend with a few rounds and some fun on the side.

WmFlynnfan
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 11:59:13 PM by Bill Crane »
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 13 Posted
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2013, 08:07:56 PM »
Our very own Pete Wendt is the superintendent there. Or at least he was a few years back when I met him at the US Senior Am at Beverly, which was won by Kinloch's co-designer Vinny Giles. I had the opportunity to hang out with Pete and Kinloch's GM. What great men!  They and Vinnie Giles are as solid a troika as exists in American golf. I hope they're all still working together.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Pete Wendt

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Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 13 Posted
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2013, 10:20:52 PM »
Terry,

Thanks for the kind words. We are all still alive and kicking at Kinloch.  Come down and see us before it gets oppressively hot!

You can tell that spring was a little late this year, as the pictures show that the leaves weren't fully emerged. Weather is great now.

Great shots.

Pete

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 13 Posted
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2013, 10:45:10 PM »
I have mentioned to other GCA members that I have no need to chase the fugitive dream of playing Augusta, having played Kinloch. I cannot imagine a greater parkland course, as others have mentioned here. What Augusta has over Kinloch is the years of television and tournament results. I could easily envision all those things happening at this club.

We did not stay over at Kinloch, nor did we at Pete Dye (although we did at Ballyhack.) Guest cabins are an entrancing luxury that would too quickly lead me to the poorhouse; it is nice to live vicariously through others who can swing the full monty.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Lester George

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Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 13 Posted
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2013, 02:15:36 PM »
Mark,

Another good photo tour.  Looking forward to the last holes.

Lester

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 13 Posted
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2013, 05:38:34 PM »
Thanks Lester! I had a great morning at Kinloch.

Sorry for the delay in  finishing the tour... I'll get the last holes posted soon.

Mark Steffey

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Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 13 Posted
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2013, 08:35:34 PM »
Thanks Lester! I had a great morning at Kinloch.

Sorry for the delay in  finishing the tour... I'll get the last holes posted soon.

great collection of holes to come too!
the green at 14 is well concealed.  you have no idea on the tee what is in store for you right and long.
15 is an outstandingly fun drivable par 4 with a great two level green that is well protected.
16 is just beautiful.
17 a strong par 3
then 18 finishes you off with water left and long.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 13 Posted
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2014, 07:06:01 PM »
The 14th at Kinloch is a 130 yard par-3 set hard against the lake.  My first thought was that this short hole was a connector hole to get from the interesting, rolling land that occupies the 13th and 15th holes.  From the tee, especially with the pin I played, the hole is easy, simple, boring even.




What's amazing is that the entire interest in the hole cannot be seen from the tee.  The spine in the centre of the green.  The blind portion of the putting surface behind the hill on the right.  The angled back edge of the green.  Long runs off into the water.  What looks easy... is not!




Another split fairway hole at the 15th.  Long grass that ran the length of the left side of the hole has been removed and the option to play left for the short route to the green all the more tempting.




But as seen from the left, it is useful to sneak a peak at the pin position when on 12 to help with decision making on the 15th tee.




The 16th is a brutish par-4.  The golfer will always be tempted to challenge the carry on the left, but wind direction and choice of tees will determine whether that is a realistic option.




Though this photo was taken from 150 yards out, many approaches will be played from 200 yards or more.  The long green is open in front and a small feeder slope will accept running approaches.






Another visually attractive hole at the subtly difficult 190 yard par-3 17th.  It has hard to find a good location to miss this tee shot as a deep swale left and a bunker that plays down the tilt of the green from the right both leave very difficult recoveries.








On a golf course known for its decision-making from the tee, the 18th stands in contrast as a hole that demands perfection.  Water left; bunkers right -- hit it well or else!








The 19th / bye hole:


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 19 Posted
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2014, 10:02:47 PM »
Thanks for finishing this up Mark. Kinloch looks amazing. I'll be driving from Cincinnati to a wedding south of DC in May, and have been thinking about which route to take. The shortest route goes through Pittsburgh, but the possibility of playing Kinloch makes the route through Virginia very tempting.

As much as we laud scruffy and rugged bunkers, there's something spectacular about white sand and flashed faces in the right setting. In these photos, they really pop and look great, and the natural areas also add a lot of texture. Yet, even though the course isn't particularly minimalist looking, it really seems like the holes sit comfortably on the land. I really like it from here.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 19 Posted
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2014, 01:25:21 AM »
I don't usually comment on places I have never seen. However, based on the pictures presented here I don't come away especially interested in playing this course. Far too modern a look for my taste. Something just doesn't look right.

Again, this is a reaction to the pictures presented here and not comments based on an actual site visit.

Kinlock aside, I really like the work Lester George did on the Old White. 
Tim Weiman

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kinloch GC (Photos) - Hole 19 Posted
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2014, 08:48:15 AM »
I would be surprised if you spent a couple of days there and didn't walk away with a great feeling about the place. Certainly a more modern look but very challenging, great strategic options and impeccable conditions.  The staff and members couldn't have been more welcoming.  Might not be your taste architecturally but its a very special place to play IMHO.

Dan

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