TPC Sawgrass - Is it still a torture test?

[Matt Kardash]

So I am concluding that the answer is no, it is no longer a torture test.

The average winning score from the 1980s, when they started playing the Players there, is basically the same as now.  So how was it more of a torture test back then? 

You can't base it solely on the winning score. TPC was always a course, even from the beginning, that could be had with good play. It was the kind of course where in the same threesome a score of 66, 73, and 83 could be shot. It was quite unique in that regard. Now I'd say the big number is much less an option and you mainly see people shooting between 67 and 74. The range of scores is not as extreme as it once was. Do people still shoot 80? Yes, of course. But not like before.

As mark said, the course has been diluted since year 1.

Jim, so are you trying to say the course is not any harder today as it was back then? Did you not see my breakdown of how the holes are played? It's a drive and pitch course now. Even if you make an argument that the scores are still relatively the same, I still don't think the course is playing how it should play and isn't really posing an interesting challenge to the players. They can probably leave their drivers, long irons and mid irons in their car, all they need is a 3 wood and short irons. That isn't how the course was designed to play.

But we are now focusing simply on length, the lack of scruffyness and the flatter greens are also a big difference. You don't really see 3 putts anymore.

[Mac Plumart]

It certainly seems to be a pretty challenging course that demands constant mental focus and execution.  No?

[Matt Kardash]

It certainly seems to be a pretty challenging course that demands constant mental focus and execution.  No?

For sure. I am not saying it is an easy course, but it certainly is not the brutal test it was designed to be. Tiger just teed off on 5, the second longest par 4 with a 5-wood, and has a short iron into the green. It's all I'm sayin'.

As a side note, the reason why Tiger is probably going to finally win at Sawgrass is because he no longer needs to use his driver. in the past he usd to hit more drivers and would miss fariwarys. When you miss the fairways at Sawgrass that is when life becomes difficult. Now he just hits his 5-wood all day off the tee and has a short iron into the greens. He has eliminated his biggest weakness.

[cary lichtenstein]

I can't comment on how it is today, but I can on how it was very early on. Back when they played the first TPC there in the early 80's, my wife and I flew down there the next week for 3 days of torture.

The first day, the tee shots looked so intimidating, I tightened up and sprayed it all over the place. I settled down the next 2 days, but the greens were sooooo tough, with so many tiny sections, that uphill putts, when they got to their apex, the would shoot forward.

Like the TPC in Palm Springs, we never went back to play their again.

I think the course is really for pros. I used to hit about 50% of my greens, but my eye and game never fit that course.

[Tim_Cronin]

Yes.

[Jim Nugent]

So I am concluding that the answer is no, it is no longer a torture test.

The average winning score from the 1980s, when they started playing the Players there, is basically the same as now.  So how was it more of a torture test back then? 

You can't base it solely on the winning score. TPC was always a course, even from the beginning, that could be had with good play. It was the kind of course where in the same threesome a score of 66, 73, and 83 could be shot. It was quite unique in that regard. Now I'd say the big number is much less an option and you mainly see people shooting between 67 and 74. The range of scores is not as extreme as it once was. Do people still shoot 80? Yes, of course. But not like before.

As mark said, the course has been diluted since year 1.

Jim, so are you trying to say the course is not any harder today as it was back then? Did you not see my breakdown of how the holes are played? It's a drive and pitch course now. Even if you make an argument that the scores are still relatively the same, I still don't think the course is playing how it should play and isn't really posing an interesting challenge to the players. They can probably leave their drivers, long irons and mid irons in their car, all they need is a 3 wood and short irons. That isn't how the course was designed to play.

But we are now focusing simply on length, the lack of scruffyness and the flatter greens are also a big difference. You don't really see 3 putts anymore.

Matt, I have trouble analyzing your idea without quantifying it.  e.g., you say there aren't as many scores now in the 80s.  I just looked at this year's scores.  There were at least seven scores of 80 or more the first two rounds.  A lot of others in high 70s.  At the same time, Castro opened with a 63.  He promptly followed that with 78.  15 strokes higher. 

I don't know how that compares with the early days.  Seems like a big swing to me, though, where some players tear up the course while others get their heads handed to them.  One guy shot 80 the first day, 70 the next.  Stadler: 78/68.  Several led off in the 60s, but still missed the cut by ballooning up in round two. 

Mark makes a good point.  (He has a habit of doing that.)  But then if he's right, what years are you comparing?  Only the first?  Not much of a benchmark. 

I totally believe the clubbing you gave.  I'm sure they weren't hitting those clubs in the 1980s, or probably the 1990s either.  Yet even with the greatly shorter clubs, the winning scores are no better.  If it is markedly easier now, shouldn't that show up in the winners' scores?   

It's ironic -- or maybe just a reminder of the differing perspectives we often have -- that another thread is up on GCA right now, that takes the exact opposite position.  i.e. Sawgrass is a great venue, that really tests the pros, that Dye should be proud of. 

I've never seen the course in person, and don't have complete numbers.  But the numbers I do have don't seem to support your position.  If you can show me the big differences back then, I'll be glad to change my mind.