Tamping down spike marks

[Emile Bonfiglio]

Why is this not allowed? I don't understand.

[Bill Brightly]

Because tamping things down could never end. Carried to an extreme, players could do many things to improve their putting line.

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

The question is the other way around: why is it allowed to repair ball marks? The principle is "play the ball as it lies and play the course as you find it". Reparation of ball marks is an exception to the general rule. If you keep on allowing exceptions, it will never end.

[JSlonis]

The question is the other way around: why is it allowed to repair ball marks? The principle is "play the ball as it lies and play the course as you find it". Reparation of ball marks is an exception to the general rule. If you keep on allowing exceptions, it will never end.

What???

 If you didn't allow players to fix ball marks, can you imagine what a clubs greens would look like after a week or so? Our membership isn't great about repairing them when they're allowed and encouraged to. Putting is hard enough, without the ability to fix ball marks while putting, the scoring part of the game just becomes silly and no fun. People will not repair their marks after the fact, when they've finished putting.

[Dan Kelly]

What???

 If you didn't allow players to fix ball marks, can you imagine what a clubs greens would look like after a week or so? Our membership isn't great about repairing them when they're allowed and encouraged to. Putting is hard enough, without the ability to fix ball marks while putting, the scoring part of the game just becomes silly and no fun. People will not repair their marks after the fact, when they've finished putting.

Thank you.

I was on the verge of being forced to use the rolling-eyes emoticon.

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

I think I wasn't clear enough, perhaps because English is not my mother language. I am not suggesting that you should not allow repair of ball marks. What I tried to explain is that the principle behind the rules of golf is that you have to play the course as you find it and that allowing to repair ball marks is an exception to such general principle. The exception was included in the rules precisely for the reasons that you raise in your message. I hope this clarifies my point.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think I wasn't clear enough, perhaps because English is not my mother language.
I am not suggesting that you should not allow repair of ball marks.

What I tried to explain is that the principle behind the rules of golf is that you have to play the course as you find it and that allowing to repair ball marks is an exception to such general principle.

That's absolutely untrue and an indication that you don't understand the principle/concept behind "playing the course as you find it"

Further, to your misunderstanding of the principle/concept, there's a reason bunkers have rakes, it's so that a golfer, when he disturbs the course, can provide remediation services for those playing behind him.  However, a golfer's impact on a bunker is readily visible, a ball mark not so much so, hence, the allowance for remediation when another golfer has failed to restore the course to its natural condition, either intentionally or unintentionally.

There's a reason that some tournaments provide maintenance staff to groom bunkers during play.

The exception was included in the rules precisely for the reasons that you raise in your message. I hope this clarifies my point.


Emile,

As to spike marks, they're less easy to identify, especially from a distance, and a golfer could easily create a trough by tamping down a path to the hole.

In fact, one of the great hustles in golf is to bet someone that you can make an 6 - 8 footer blindfolded.

First, without the sucker seeing you, you take out the flagstick, place it on the green such that base is in the hole, then stand on it for a few seconds.   Then, put your ball at the far end, have the sucker put his hands over your eyes or blindfold you, then putt away and the cash will flow into your pocket soon after that familiar sound.

Hope that helps

 

[Matthew Essig]

Why is this not allowed? I don't understand.

Because the line of play (and even moreso, the line of putt) is and always has been sacred in the game - with one glaring exception, of course:  the cheater line. 

If there was one new rule, it would be the removal of the cheater line. I cannot stand it when 1) players use them as an aid and  2) spend 30 seconds trying to line it up, then marking the ball again, adjust the ball some more.....

That actually brings up another rule that my father and I have talked about. A player should only be able to mark the ball when 1) the ball is in the way of another player 2) still in its own mark or 3) lift, clean, and place is in play because there might be mud on the ball. This would speed up play so much.

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

Dear Patrick,

Without trying to start an argument over this matter, my statement is based on an official publication of the USGA, "The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf", by Richard S. Tufts, updated by William J. Williams. In chapter 5. Play the Course As You Find It, you can read:

"Further support of this principle is found in the special rules covering the line of putt on the putting green [Rule 16-1a and 1c]. In Rule 16-1a and 1c, the principle of not adjusting anything (except ball marks and old hole plugs) in the line over which the ball may travel on the putting green is again specifically covered".

Kind regards,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ricardo,

I knew Richard Tufts and played golf with his son Peter, albeit, quite a while ago.

The concept/principle of "playing the course as you find it" wasn't conceived in the context of having the golfer in the group in front of you, decimating the playing surfaces.

As to "ball marks" left by a prior player, if you couldn't repair them, consider an embedded ball on the putting surface and the dilemma that creates if repair was not permitted.

The player may also repair damage to the putting surface, in his line, by his opponent, fellow competitor or caddy.
So, the concept/principle of playing the course "as you find it" takes on a broader meaning and that's the one you're missing.

You might also expand the caveat to the "concept/principle of "playing the course as you find it" to include the relief one gets from casual water on the putting surface, whether it accumates prior to or during the round, or at the time you're actually on the putting surface..

I can only devote so much time to your education

[Emile Bonfiglio]

I bring this up because I have seen instances where people miss a 4 foot put because of a spike mark. They have no option for a clear path to the hole. Maybe a clear path to the hole is not a "right" everyone should have on the green but a situation created by chance. Sergio Garcia opted to chip in a 5 footer at Quail Hollow because the line he had was so bad.

[Matthew Essig]

Should we ban spikes? There are a few pros who have grippy non-spiked golf shoes now. I have tried them and they work well.

[Jim Nugent]

I thought Ricardo, when he said "play the ball as it lies," was leading up to another practice golf allows: marking and cleaning your ball on the green.  I understand the reason for it.  Yet it does add more time, and brings on its share of mischief as well. 

[David_Elvins]

Should we ban spikes? There are a few pros who have grippy non-spiked golf shoes now. I have tried them and they work well.

Aren't these supposed to damage greens more than spikes?

[Matthew Essig]

Should we ban spikes? There are a few pros who have grippy non-spiked golf shoes now. I have tried them and they work well.

Aren't these supposed to damage greens more than spikes?

I would love to know how because if the answer is footmarks, they will occur with any type of shoe and, I might be completely wrong here; just making a guess, could be less disruptive to the putting line.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Repairing ball marks is one of the widest abuses carried out in the pro game.

I can’t find the exact quote/figures  but (from memory)
Through observation the pro tournament player ‘repairs’ an average of 1.6 ball marks within 12 feet of the hole – presumably on or near their line- each time they are on a green.
The average shot does not land within 12’ (i.e. considerably less than one per player) of the hole and certainly not on the line of the next putt.

Think about it. You see them with the repair tool on every shot green but what are they really doing?

Has anyone ever been penalised for repairing something that wasn’t a pitchmark?

[Sean_A]

I might be mistaken, but I took Ricardo to be saying that ball marks should be repaired when they occur.  Failing that, a player in a following group should repair the damage after their group is done putting.  Not that ball marks shouldn't ever be repaired - nevermind about the golf, it doesn't make sense from a maintenance PoV.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

I bring this up because I have seen instances where people miss a 4 foot put because of a spike mark. They have no option for a clear path to the hole. Maybe a clear path to the hole is not a "right" everyone should have on the green but a situation created by chance. Sergio Garcia opted to chip in a 5 footer at Quail Hollow because the line he had was so bad.

Emile,

It's a legitimate dilemma.

I think the problem may lie more in the realm of abuse if tamping down spike marks were permitted.

As an initial solution, perhaps allowing your fellow competitor to  approve of same would be a reasonable first step.

There were certain competitors who would deliberately skuff/mar the putting surface with their spikes.

Soft Spikes have reduced spike marks and some of the tread soles eliminate them entirely