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Mike Viscusi

AACIII - Entry #22
« on: May 09, 2013, 04:04:40 PM »
Here is my design for AACIII.  I'm not so sure it was the best of the bunch but I am humbled that Tommy Naccarato and Mike Nuzzo both thought so.  I think pretty highly of both of them and really enjoy reading their posts so it was nice to get that recognition and I really appreciate the time and effort that all three judges put in, as well as Alex and Jim.

This was a lot of fun.  At times it was frustrating and consuming but it was pretty rewarding when things started to come together.  Due to the massive size of the site I spent most of my time trying to figure out the routing.  I didn't have much free time to work on this so I was using a paint program on my iPad and doing stick drawings with my finger laying in bed most nights (my wife thought this to be pretty crazy especially when she found out there was no prize for the contest).

A couple of weeks in I thought I had my routing finalized but then it turned out, since I wasn't using an accurate ruler at this stage, that my scale was a good bit off in some spots and that kind of killed that entire routing and I had to start over (that routing had the clubhouse towards the southeast corner).  With limited time I almost decided to call it quits but I kept doodling and eventually settled on my current routing a day or two before the deadline.  I then drew it up, scanned it and "painted it" in photoshop and got it in just before the midnight deadline.

I was relatively pleased with it but I knew there were some problems with my design as I was ready to submit it:
1) I hated that the final two holes played straight into the sun but I just didn't have time to change it.  How big of an issue is this?
2) A couple of the playing corridors were a little too close together, especially 10/12 where a golfer could purposely play the 10th down 12 fairway (I would remedy this with a large cross bunker in the middle of 12 fairway that would be in the drive zone for #10 but not have too much of an impact on hole 12).
3) I wish I would have made the topo lines more visible on my drawing.

My main goals for the design were to:
1) Create variety in the design through varied distances, elevations, natural features,
shot-making requirements and directions.
2) Make the course extremely walkable with many tees spilling off of the previous
green and a complete absence of lengthy transitions (In my mind I assumed this would be a private, walking club with limited play so I wasn't too concerned with the legal ramifications of the proximity off greens and tees and the occasional close playing corridor)
3) Create multiple options for “Sunset Golf”.  I thought I achieved this pretty well and gave multiple options.
4) Design the facility so that the cabins were within easy walking distance to the
clubhouse, parking lot, practice areas, putting course, par 3 course and first tee.

The design allows the player to decide if it will be a driving course or a second-shot
course by providing multiple options from the tee. The golfer almost always has the
option to hit the easy shot off the tee, which then requires a more testing approach shot,
or he can take the challenging line from the tee to leave an easier second shot to attack
the green.

Anyway here is an updated final design showing hole options and I also drew up a quick stick routing to show the topography better.  If anyone is interested I recently wrote up some notes on each hole that I'd be happy to post as well.





I look forward to hearing some feedback.

Thanks,
Mike V

Mike Viscusi

Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 04:08:02 PM »
This was the feedback from Ron Whitten and Tommy Naccarato.  Note: Ron had me #5 and Tommy had me #1.  I'd love to hear Mike's feedback as well if he gets a chance.  Thanks.

---

Whitten- ENTRY 22
Practice range is aligned to the south, avoiding any sun issues in morning or evening, but posing some concern about practicing into the prevailing south wind. That can be easily remedied by creating a crescent-shaped tee for the range.
 Locating the clubhouse on the far west is a bit of a concern. While the architect wisely starts the opening holes to the south – avoiding the situation where early morning golfers play into the rising sun – the 17th and 18th holes play to the northwest, precisely in the direction of a setting sun for evening summer players.  Even worse, the architect incorporates that 18th hole into four of his “sunset loops” and 17 and 18 into three of them.
This designer clearly let the land dictate his routing, with no effort to provide returning nines, which I applaud, but I would like to have seen a halfway house somewhere. I presume that little building by the seventh and 15th greens is the halfway house, but it would have been nice if the architect had clearly pointed that out.  I’m okay with only one par 3 on the front nine and three on the back, but since two play north and two play south, I question if a little more variety in their directions couldn’t have been achieved.
My biggest concern with this design is that it concentrates on just two sets of tees, 6,982 yards and 6,546 yards, both far too long for average members who will be playing this course the most. I assume there are forward tees intended, but I cannot find them in this routing, other than the occasional extra red dot.  This design also commits the same “error” I’ve found on most other entries.  While keeping tee boxes close to previous greens to help make the course walkable and brisk in pace, the architect positions the back tee closest to each previous green. To me, this is wrong, since the back tees are rarely used. The members tee should be the closest tee to each previous green, but I can’t find a single instance on this routing where it is.
In some instances, the architect is using that now-popular method of simply using closely mown turf around a green as the teeing area for the next hole. While I should hope that he/she is providing some flat areas within those closely mown areas for tees, it’s not enough to simply encourage golfer to tee it up where they wish. For handicap purposes (and to comply with the rules of golf), golfers must play from between sets of markers, so regardless of how natural the architect may have intended his teeing areas, the owner/operator will have to clutter it up with markers. And if there’s no clear indication of where the architect intends those markers to be, his design may be at the mercy of a lowly-paid, part-time maintenance worker who goes out early in the morning and tosses down markers willy nilly.
While I admire the cluster concept of the holes closest to the clubhouse (4,5,6 and 18 all sharing a common “fairway”), the lawyer in me does have a bit of concern about how close some of those holes are to one another.  The 18th green, for example, is in the shank zone from the fifth tee, and I can envision how golfers – given the nature of the crosswinds on the south – might aim for the 18th fairway from the sixth tee, hoping to ride the wind, and end up hitting someone on 18. Or a tee shot from 18 tee sweeping with the wind well into the sixth fairway and striking a golfer on that hole.  Safety has to be the first concern of any golf architect, which is part of the reason why very few architects these days place tee boxes close to previous greens.
Another red flag are the 15th tee directly behind the 14th green and the 17th tee directly behind the 16th green. Both clearly are risks to golfers not paying attention to the group behind them.
Plus, there’s simply the question of congestion.  With the eighth and 16th tees so close to one another, and both so close to the seventh and 15th greens, one wonders if this was truly necessary. Seems like it carries the potential of being loud and disruptive to play. Especially if that is indeed the halfway house in the same location.
While I admire the apparent variety in the size and shapes of greens (I say apparent since the plan isn’t that well detailed, even when I zoomed in), I’m not sure that some, like one, two, 12 and 17, aren’t too small, given the windy nature of this site. (I’m sure the architect will contend that the tightly mown surrounds around these greens provide adequate buffer, but I’m not sure members ever buy that.)
Certainly a grand variety in the bunkering. Not sure about the forced carry bunker on nine; makes it hard for high-handicappers to finish the hole. And while I love the idea of a bunker in the center of the 14th green, I’m not sure the long bunker to the left of the green is really necessary.  In the sandhills terrain, replacing native rough with sand is sometimes counterproductive. Winter winds will blow that sand away, sometimes covering the green or, worse yet, eroding into the green itself.
I’m not a big fan of alternate fairway holes, because most times one fairway or the other never gets used and is eventually abandoned. On the par-5 sixth, I don’t see the advantage to playing down the left fairway, unless perhaps the closely mown area to the left of the green cants down toward the green and thus serves as a backboard for second shots played from the left.  But if that’s the case, the green is just as easily accessible in two from the right-hand fairway.  This is one of many that I think looks great on paper, but as a practical matter doesn’t work, and eventually the owner would quit maintaining the left-hand fairway to save money.
CONCLUSIONS TO ENTRY 22:  Graphics look great, and the routing clearly attempts to draw the best out of the land.  But there are serious safety issues that give me pause, and the architect does not seem a bit concerned with accommodating the average high-handicapper, who will make up the majority of the play on this course.  If this architect were hired, I’d urge him to relocate tee boxes to eliminate potential dangers and lawsuits and add more forward tees, ideally at different angles, to make the course more playable for high handicappers.
 
---

Naccarrato
ACC22
 
A well thought out routing with lot of creativity and shared fairways—a big plus!
 
While there is an over-abundance of sand in use, in a lot of places its shared and they’re HUGE and that for me works! With your routing, it is the best of the lot and I think its ultimately the best sand hills course of the contestants. It reminds me of something Gil Hanse would design!
 
Congratulations!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 04:13:59 PM »
Landing zones on 6 and 18 too close together?
1 and 3 most boring land?
12 fairway too side-sloped?
Seem to simply ignore some of the best features of the property?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 04:21:14 PM by GJ Bailey »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim Colton

Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 06:24:34 PM »
Mike,

 Congrats on the win. I enjoyed your routing though I don't think I had you in my final five. In addition to the 10/12 issue you noted, I thought 3rd tee could pose some problems with the shared fairway on a drivable hole coming from the other direction. It looks like golfers would be walking right into the danger zone.

 Nice work on the Gil Hanse comment! That's gotta make you feel good.

 Jim

Don_Mahaffey

Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 06:33:03 PM »
Shows what I know about golf architecture i guess as I didn't have this entry anywhere near the top.

Take away the green tint and focus on the stick routing and you are left with some very severe ground, serious ups and downs, as well as some questionable traverses from tee to fwy. Afraid you'd see lots of sandy cart paths out there (or some sort of material paths) in an effort to get around. I kinda figured using the most severe looking ground would win favors but do you use a zip line on #11, or a switch back cart path??? What about hole #8? Does that look like good use of the land? How about 170 yds out on #12? Rice paddy type work to keep a ball in play?

Mike, please take no offense (Ok I know that will be hard, but I really do not mean to personally attack you) I'll just concede that I am completely out of touch with what is good. I know it sounds like sour grapes, but its not. I just admit that I do not get it.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 06:53:30 PM »
Mike, well done!

Ok, I'll start with what held me back:

I think the 6 and 18 landing zones is a valid criticism. As a longer hitter I would probably play to the right on both holes and those appear to be very close landing areas. This was not a deal breaker though.

10/12. This area was the biggest flaw I saw in your routing and actually kept it out of my top 5 for voting. It seemed there would be too great a safety issue for those on the 12th from 10th tee shots. Also I would probably just play down 10's fairway.

11- I think it looks like a good drop shot hole and the walk down could be easily done. Don't know if you would have carts at your course, but they could be routed south and I don't think it'd be an issue.

12- seems a little contrived. There appears to be a cool peninsula of land suitable for fairway on a direct line to the green that has not been put to use in an effort to create a dogleg. I guess I just didn't get why you did that, especially with 10 playing around that. You've seen the same problem I saw and I'd be curious to hear if you've thought of a solution.

17- Could be fairway all the way up either side to provide a route for the ground game.

I liked:

Your shared fairway and multiple routes for different holes.
The style of your presentation- I think it enhanced the features that you used for the course rather than covering up for any flaws.
Your sunset loops and the many options provided.
The crossover at 7-8 and 15-16 was nicely done and not an easy thing to do.
Unique strategies at every turn and memorable holes. Nothing blurs together, which is also tough to do!
Great variety in your 4-4-4-4 start.
Greensites 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 16, and 17.


I realize the like section is shorter (and less spaced out) but overall I really enjoyed your entry! You found many of the same flaws I saw, but I would put total faith in you to get those fixed as you clearly put a great deal of work and thought into your winning entry.  :D

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 08:34:51 PM »
Shows what I know about golf architecture i guess as I didn't have this entry anywhere near the top.

+1
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Mike Viscusi

Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 10:22:46 AM »
Landing zones on 6 and 18 too close together?

Seems like most find the 6th and 18th landing areas too close and I get that. My only defense is, like I mentioned, that I thought there would be pretty limited play on this course and for both holes there are two distinct lines of play.  Players on those holes would each need to have taken the "safe" route on their respective holes for them to get close. But, with that said, I think I can preserve the integrity of the hole and basically shift both fairways of the 6th hole further north and remove the adjoining fairway of 6/18.

1 and 3 most boring land?
Are you saying 1 and 3 is the most boring land in my routing or the most boring land on the entire map?  If the former, then, sure, it might be.  One hole must be the most boring.  If you're referring to the latter, well, that would just be wrong.

Overall though I still found the land for each to have some interest.  I wanted #1 to be a gentle opener and the player has multiple options from a pretty elevated tee and has a great chance to start the round with a birdie. Playing close to the large fairway bunker (a) allows for the best angle to the green, which slopes with the land from the right to the left. The player can also choose to layup short in front of the large bunker (b), which will still leave only a short iron in but it will play a little more uphill. Enough rope is offered though for the player to hang himself: the greedy golfer, downwind, from the elevated tee may try to clear the bunker (c) from the tee and reach the green. Not clearing the bunker or missing right of the greenside bunker will likely result in a bogey. Likewise, the player who decides to recklessly blast driver well right off the tee to avoid all of the apparent trouble (d) will be left with a poor angle over a tight bunker to a green that runs away. Reaching the green in regulation from this spot is unlikely.

Three is actually one of my favorite holes, but it's definitely more subtle than some of the others.  It's a classic switchback hole that requires a left to right tee shot and right to left approach.  It plays gently downhill on the drive and is loosely based on Pine Valley's 13th. The line of instinct will pull players down the left side (a), away from the large fairway bunker in an attempt to shorten the hole. Although the shorter route, the player has a poor approach angle over the front left bunker. More troubling for this golfer is the shot requires a right to left approach but the ground slopes hard from left to right. Route B takes on the fairway bunker to find the much flatter right side of the fairway and set up the best angle of approach, albeit a longer one.

I agree that the green is located in a pretty boring, flat spot and while I didn't get the chance to do detailed green renderings, my thought was to raise the green slightly on the right and slope it towards the left, further accepting the right to left approach in helping find tucked left pins, and making recoveries from the bailout spot (c) very quick.


12 fairway too side-sloped?

I don't think 12 fairway is too side sloped.  In fact, if you look at the landing zone off the tee, it's pretty flat with the topo lines about 100 yards apart (but there is still some r to l slope).  There is one pretty severe part though where it bottle necks at about 100 to 150 yards from the green.  I guess my thought was to level out that area some, but looking back I think I would just make the fairway bottleneck there since that area really shouldn't come into play that often.  Monster drives that cut off a lot of the fairway still wouldn't reach that spot and the hole is short enough where most approaches will easily clear that area and get much closer to the green.  I guess it would add some strategy for players who hit a poor tee ball, in deciding whether they wanted to try to play short of that bottleneck on their layup or get aggressive and try to clear it.

Seem to simply ignore some of the best features of the property?

I personally thought I used the most interesting features on the map as much as I could, but to each his own.  There's obviously going to be significantly differing opinions, especially on a site this vast.  On a 1,000 acre piece of property I had to make some sacrifices but obviously you think I missed the mark.  Feel free to detail all of the best features that I overlooked.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2013, 10:47:25 AM »
Mike
Nice presentation and illustrated plan
Congratulations
I liked yours the most, especially how the holes tacked and provided a good variety.
The fairway widths were cool and could be enjoyed by a number of average players.
When I see consecutive holes change direction I figure there are a number of teeing options.
I didn't look at anyones range.  :)
It looked a bit like you were trying to minimize or camouflage the terrain in your final plan, I held that against you for a while.

I would not build this course.
While the over the cliff holes look like fun, I'd never want to have to play back up when there were so many other options on the site.
I think you have 4 holes that I would never build, even though some of them looked like fun, as an overall golf experience there are better options.

Nice work.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike Viscusi

Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 10:53:37 AM »
Shows what I know about golf architecture i guess as I didn't have this entry anywhere near the top.

Take away the green tint and focus on the stick routing and you are left with some very severe ground, serious ups and downs, as well as some questionable traverses from tee to fwy. Afraid you'd see lots of sandy cart paths out there (or some sort of material paths) in an effort to get around. I kinda figured using the most severe looking ground would win favors but do you use a zip line on #11, or a switch back cart path??? What about hole #8? Does that look like good use of the land? How about 170 yds out on #12? Rice paddy type work to keep a ball in play?

Mike, please take no offense (Ok I know that will be hard, but I really do not mean to personally attack you) I'll just concede that I am completely out of touch with what is good. I know it sounds like sour grapes, but its not. I just admit that I do not get it.

Not sure what to tell you Don...maybe you're right and the design is routed over ground that is entirely too severe and impractical.  Or maybe you're completely wrong.  Or maybe the design is somewhere in the middle and some of the routing would need to be modified in the field and a good bit of dirt would need to be moved.  I honestly have no idea, but I'm not too worried about it either way and it's cool, I take no offense.

What about hole #8? Does that look like good use of the land?

Can you clarify this a bit more?  What do you find so offensive about my use of the land on #8?  Here was my thought behind the hole:

It is loosely based on the par 5 15th at Boston GC with the green tucked into a natural bowl against a dune.  The bowl is fronted by diagonal crossing bunkers that, if carried, will propel balls the remaining 50 yards to the green's surface. From the tee the player can try to reach a dune top plateau up the left side (a) in order to gain a view of the sunken putting surface (or at least some of the flagstick) on the approach but this line brings the severe fairway bunker into play, which will require a pitch out and a long third. Perched on the edge of a ridge, the right side of the hole is trouble the entire way.

I envsioned a two tier green with the back being a shallow shelf, so for those laying up, the pin location should be considered. Front pins can be accessed from most places. Ideally you will get close to the crossing bunkers (b) to get a full view of the green. Back pins on the shallow plateau have a steep runoff area behind the green so the best approach is from the far left of the hole (c), in which the plateau angle is less shallow and the dune provides a backstop. This layup spot requires length and must contend with the corner fairway
bunker.

Mike Viscusi

Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 10:55:55 AM »
Mike
Nice presentation and illustrated plan
Congratulations
I liked yours the most, especially how the holes tacked and provided a good variety.
The fairway widths were cool and could be enjoyed by a number of average players.
When I see consecutive holes change direction I figure there are a number of teeing options.
I didn't look at anyones range.  :)
It looked a bit like you were trying to minimize or camouflage the terrain in your final plan, I held that against you for a while.

I would not build this course.
While the over the cliff holes look like fun, I'd never want to have to play back up when there were so many other options on the site.
I think you have 4 holes that I would never build, even though some of them looked like fun, as an overall golf experience there are better options.

Nice work.

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the feedback.  Out of curiosity, which 4 holes would you never build?

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 11:27:50 AM »
Mike,

I loved your 8th for what it's worth.

Also, outside of the 12th tee shot, I did not think the terrain was too extreme. Heck, I may have used terrain that was just as bold in mind, but what do I know?  :)

Mike Viscusi

Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 11:32:43 AM »
Mike,

I loved your 8th for what it's worth.


It's too late to try and make me feel better Alex, GJ and Don have already crushed my confidence.  ;)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 12:28:26 PM »
Mike,

I loved your 8th for what it's worth.


It's too late to try and make me feel better Alex, GJ and Don have already crushed my confidence.  ;)

I just asked 4 questions, and you answered 3 well. However, it appears to me that yours was a very compact routing on a huge property. If it was Bill Coore or Tom Doak, they would have been inquiring about adding some property (e.g. more property was added for Coore at Sand Hills, and Tom went off the designated map for Dismal River), not making a cramped routing that have danger questions coming up. If you want to see holes in some of the better land, just look at the designs that finished 2, 3, and 5, which are my 1, 3, and 2.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 01:03:25 PM by GJ Bailey »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 02:33:30 PM »


12 fairway too side-sloped?

I don't think 12 fairway is too side sloped.  In fact, if you look at the landing zone off the tee, it's pretty flat with the topo lines about 100 yards apart (but there is still some r to l slope).  There is one pretty severe part though where it bottle necks at about 100 to 150 yards from the green.  I guess my thought was to level out that area some, but looking back I think I would just make the fairway bottleneck there since that area really shouldn't come into play that often.  Monster drives that cut off a lot of the fairway still wouldn't reach that spot and the hole is short enough where most approaches will easily clear that area and get much closer to the green.  I guess it would add some strategy for players who hit a poor tee ball, in deciding whether they wanted to try to play short of that bottleneck on their layup or get aggressive and try to clear it.



I looked at 12 a little more. If I measure correctly, the landing zone is 300 yards (280 from forward tee) from the tee and 20 feet up hill. It seems to me the average player is going to be hitting his second shot from a side hill lie to a very narrow segment of the fairway with the steepest side slope. Most second shots will suffer Sagebrush (a reference to a BC club) disease and roll into the rough, if they haven't already flown there from the natural curve of the shot given the stance.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Viscusi

Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 03:58:21 PM »
I looked at 12 a little more. If I measure correctly, the landing zone is 300 yards (280 from forward tee) from the tee and 20 feet up hill. It seems to me the average player is going to be hitting his second shot from a side hill lie to a very narrow segment of the fairway with the steepest side slope. Most second shots will suffer Sagebrush (a reference to a BC club) disease and roll into the rough, if they haven't already flown there from the natural curve of the shot given the stance.

I don't have the chance right now to measure it out, but I suspect your measurements are a little off.  Remember this hole is only 520 from the tips at 3,800 ft in elevation.  It's designed to be very reachable.  That said, that very steep section of fairway you are fixated on appears to be only about 60 yards long.  At a glance I'd say it stretches from about the 80-140 yard distance from the green.  I doubt that anybody who hits a decent drive in the fairway will have any trouble getting past that section of fairway to where it opens back up.  For those who hit a bad drive or bail out well to the right, then they have a decision to make.  If they land their second shot directly into that severe part of the fairway then it will likely kick sideways into a bunker and so be it because it's terrible course management.  The fairway acts as a hazard in that case.  If the player is not certain they can clear that steep section of fairway then they need to safely lay back and leave about 170 to the green, which is their penalty for hitting such a poor tee ball.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AACIII - Entry #22
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2013, 04:05:49 PM »
I looked at 12 a little more. If I measure correctly, the landing zone is 300 yards (280 from forward tee) from the tee and 20 feet up hill. It seems to me the average player is going to be hitting his second shot from a side hill lie to a very narrow segment of the fairway with the steepest side slope. Most second shots will suffer Sagebrush (a reference to a BC club) disease and roll into the rough, if they haven't already flown there from the natural curve of the shot given the stance.

I don't have the chance right now to measure it out, but I suspect your measurements are a little off.  Remember this hole is only 520 from the tips at 3,800 ft in elevation.  It's designed to be very reachable.  That said, that very steep section of fairway you are fixated on appears to be only about 60 yards long.  At a glance I'd say it stretches from about the 80-140 yard distance from the green.  I doubt that anybody who hits a decent drive in the fairway will have any trouble getting past that section of fairway to where it opens back up.  For those who hit a bad drive or bail out well to the right, then they have a decision to make.  If they land their second shot directly into that severe part of the fairway then it will likely kick sideways into a bunker and so be it because it's terrible course management.  The fairway acts as a hazard in that case.  If the player is not certain they can clear that steep section of fairway then they need to safely lay back and leave about 170 to the green, which is their penalty for hitting such a poor tee ball.

Geez Mike,

What's your handicap? What's the length of your average drive?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Don_Mahaffey

Re: AACIII - Entry #22 New
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2013, 06:20:53 PM »
Mike,
You are a good sport and I applaud you for that.
FYI, I've got an entry somewhere here in GCA cyber space so if anyone wants to dig it out and show I don't know what I'm doing, have at it, I'll play along.

Back to entry 22. Why I did not have it near the top.

1. I spent a lot of time the last two summers in the sand hills. While I did not camp out at the driving range, I can say that I saw no one practicing in all the time I was out there. Certainly some golfers warm up before heading out, hit a few balls, knock in a few putts, but what I saw was golfers who made the investment in time and money to join a club, travel out there to play golf. I did not see or hear of anyone who went out there to work on their game. Entry 22 not only focused on sunset golf, but also added a putting course, and a short game area, and a short course, and a nice range. Might be cool on a piece of paper, but golfers do not spend a hard day of travel to, and another from, with maybe a day or two in between, to practice. They come for great golf. Add in a warm bed, cold drink and nice meal, and there you have it. In fact, I'm not so sure the Scottish model with no range at all wouldn't be just fine. Give them a welcoming first hole or two to get loose and then soak in the sand hills.

2. While I think the whole routing lore of laying out the course in the same way you might walk the land is a bit on the romantic side of things, I do believe there is some truth to it. When I look at your routing, there is no way that is the way I'd take a hike to have a look around. Would you walk (ski?) down the big bluff on #1 just to turn around and come back up it? Same with the 10, 11 & 12 loop. Why the need to squeeze those three holes into the most severe land on the property?
Building on the side of that hill may be more then just benching it out, what about erosion, traffic patterns, maintenance traffic? Remember these are unstable dunes and you are dealing with the most severe sections. Not only will you have some serious water moving when you get thunderstorms, but when its dry, those sandy paths up and down will be a bear for foot or wheel traffic. I'm looking at that big cut below your 12th approach about 80-100 out and I'm thinking mother nature has a say it what will last there. How big of a culvert do you need above it and how much stabilization do you need to do on the bottom side to keep that together? And with all the land you have at your disposal, why even roll the dice?

3. Hole #4 looks cool. I like alternate fwys, but I think alternate fwys work best when you can see your alternatives. I'm seeing an uphill 250 yard carry to a blind fwy bisected by a central hazard. I don't mind a little blindness and I like central hazards, but it would seem here the play is hit and hope since I don't think you can see the landing area. Then, you get to hit another up hill shot to the approach, as you are climbing back up what you just came down. Seems more work then fun.
Why don't I like the 8th? I see the need for an up hill 300 yard drive to a plateau that falls away on both sides. It looks like the landing area is about 40 yards wide, but knowing that area, it's not flat, and if you flatten it, you'll need the best of the best to do the work for it not to look like you lopped off the top of a pyramid...and you are not hiding it as you've chosen to work on the highest part of the land that can be seen from every part of the property. If you don't hit a long up hill drive, you are left with what looks to be another long blind shot. If you don't want it to be blind. you'll have to move more dirt for visibility and once again, you are dealing with the highest most exposed part of the property. The wind blows hard out there and when it rains it comes in buckets, and that area offers zero protection from the elements so you'll have to be at the top of your game when it comes to construction and grow in.
On hole #10, why would I ever hit my drive on 10 to the upper 10th fwy? Looks to me like the play is a more direct and level line down the 12th fwy then over to the 10th grn. Its a level hole going that way, instead of the up and then down route if I play the 10th fwy.

So...that's enough. I certainly expect you, and others to disagree, but I just think the routing and all the extras would result in a very high construction and maintenance budget that would not be close to sustainable in that environment and that locale. I realize the economics were not part of this exercise but I don't know how economic considerations can be completely ignored.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 09:14:03 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

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