[Kevin_D]

I played Stonewall North for only the second time this past weekend.  The first time I was playing absolutely terribly, and hasn't seen/read much about golf course architecture yet, so I didn't really appreciate it.  This time, I went in with eyes wide open and was pretty much blown away.  The course has some of the most dramatic bunkering I've seen, strategic options on most holes, and fantastic undulating greens - plus a laid back atmosphere in a pretty country setting.

This made me wonder - why doesn't the course get more respect?  I was searching through the archives and noticed around when it opened, there were some questions as to which course at Stonewall (Old or North) would be considered "better".  Today, I hear almost nothing about it, and even at the club I feel like it is relegated to 2nd tier status.  I'm guessing this is due to a combination of 1) fairways being much wider, causing the Old to be a sterner test of golf, 2) the fact that they allow carts, and 3) because they keep the greens slower than the Old (in part due to those big undulations).  But I'm happy to hear any other opinions and/or dissents from my positive view of the place.  Overall, I thought it was just a ton of fun and can't wait to get back.

A few pictures for you:

#3 approach:


#7 tee shot:


#8 tee shot:


#8 fairway/green view over stone wall dividing fairway:


#9, par 3:


#10 green:


#14 tee shot:


#14 green:


#15 tee shot:


#16 tee shot:


#17, par 3, fairway bunkers on adjacent holes look like they come into play (but don't)


#18 approach:

[Joe Bausch]

Both Stonewall courses are wonderful, IMO.  I prefer the udder course.   

Here's a photo tour I did of both courses about two years ago:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47891.0.html

[Robert Emmons]

Nice JOE....RHE

[Mark McKeever]

Kevin,

A good friend of mine is a member there and I have had the opportunity to play both courses numerous times.  I believe that the Old Course is viewed (from members and guests) as much more traditional high caliber golf while the second course is seen as more quirky and different.

In fact, originally the members called it the "udder course" and they had a logo that was the udder of a cow instead of the cow head that msot are familiar with.

I tend to think of the courses as "traditional Doak" while the new course I think of "Doak unleashed" especially with the bunkering and green movement.  Some of the new course greens are simply wild and a blast to putt on.  I think the new course is a blast for match play because you can get a bit more agressive with pin positions and have a really good time out there.  The Old Course from the back tees I feel like is a more grueling 18 holes than the new course, which I think attracts more better players.

That being said, I have enjoyed playing both courses and think that due to it being a pretty good drive outside of Philadelphia, neither course gets enough recognition.  That and it seems to be a second club for most members.  Great club IMO.

Mark

[Bill Brightly]

Kevin,


I tend to think of the courses as "traditional Doak" while the new course I think of "Doak unleashed" especially with the bunkering and green movement.

Mark,

I would put is differently: The North Course is what fans of Tom Doak might expect, while the Old Course is "Doak leashed." I wondered if the owner held him back on the first course and asked for a more traditional looking course, or if it was earlier in his career and he was simply more cautious.

Both are fabulous and a blast to play. His 18th on both course are absolutely gorgeous holes.

Old 18


North 18

[Tom_Doak]

Some people hate the greens of the North course.  Others love them.

I wasn't "leashed" when we built the original course, but the client wanted something very traditional and the routing was already mostly set by the permitting they'd done.  We built tilted greens (they are not easy to get up and down around) but only a few have serious internal contours.

The North course came right on the heels of Pacific Dunes and was really the first course where I had all of my current associates working on the shaping, and trying to outdo each other.  They were the ones who were unchained ... and they were building way cool stuff so I didn't try to hold the leash too tightly.  Also, we had the client's complete confidence, and they wanted something different; I believe that's what we delivered.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Philly guys are you all napping?? There should be some good discussion here since the courses are different, beautiful , but different.  I guess the club is not getting enough play these days?  Maybe they would let a bunch of us out to encourage some intelligent banter here.

[Kenny Baer]

I have played both and really like them both.  The "Old" course is awesome to me; the tilt on those greens is pretty wild and takes a deaf touch to get up and down.  The new course completely different but fun, if given the choice I would play the Old, it is just more my style.  To much of the New course when you cross the road felt just like you were playing in a relatively flat field.  Not that the holes are bad per say just that the New course seemed to me to have better land.

[Bill Brightly]

Kenny,

I agree that the land across the road on the North course is flat but they were some of my most memorable holes. I thought the stretch of holes 14-15 and 16 was a great example of how to get the most out of a flat land. Creative fairway bunkering on 14,  cool centerline bunkering on 15 (and good use of the slight elevation available for a green complex), and a beautiful tee shot over a reed-lined pond on 16.

[Kevin_D]

Kenny,

I agree that the land across the road on the North course is flat but they were some of my most memorable holes. I thought the stretch of holes 14-15 and 16 was a great example of how to get the most out of a flat land. Creative fairway bunkering on 14,  cool centerline bunkering on 15 (and good use of the slight elevation available for a green complex), and a beautiful tee shot over a reed-lined pond on 16.

Bill - my sentiments exactly. I enjoyed pretty much the whole course, but found 14-16, as well as the par 3 17th, simply outstanding.

Note that I am not bashing the Old at all! Just saying the North can more than hold its own.  Pretty neat to have two very different courses right next to each other too.

[Mark McKeever]

Lets not forget hole 12!  What a great short par 4!!

[Jim Franklin]

I just played the North for the first time and am ashamed it took me that long to get there to play it. I thought it was fantastic and the greens were very interesting. While I love the Old course, I prefer the North course. It just had more variety and some really cool shaping. I loved walking up #3 and then seeing teh green complex from the crest of the fairway. The stone wall down the middle of #8 was cool too. This course needs more respect in this discussion group.

[Ed Brzezowski]

I think part of the problem is not alot of play locally. Talked to a guy a few weeks ago who said they were "jammed" for a Saturday. Jammed was 12 players, so go figure what a really busy day must be??

I live 10 minutes from it and really dont know alot of members who play it with regularity. It seems to be the away club for alot of folks.

[Mark McKeever]

Ed,

My thoughts exactly.  It tends to be a second club for most people.

MM

[Jim Franklin]

I think part of the problem is not alot of play locally. Talked to a guy a few weeks ago who said they were "jammed" for a Saturday. Jammed was 12 players, so go figure what a really busy day must be??

I live 10 minutes from it and really dont know alot of members who play it with regularity. It seems to be the away club for alot of folks.

If I lived 10 minutes from there, I would play it every day. The variety of hole locations on the North is pretty impressive.

[Jeffrey Conners]

I'm not sure I agree that the land across the road is flat.  The tee shots on 11 and 12 are semi-blind (you can't see the landing area), the second shot on 14 is played from a sidehill lie unless you challenge the bunkers right, the second shot on 15 is about one-club uphill and 17 is one-club downhill.

I think the North gets more rounds per year than the Old, a fact most attribute to the availability of carts.

[Ed Brzezowski]

I think part of the problem is not alot of play locally. Talked to a guy a few weeks ago who said they were "jammed" for a Saturday. Jammed was 12 players, so go figure what a really busy day must be??

I live 10 minutes from it and really dont know alot of members who play it with regularity. It seems to be the away club for alot of folks.

If I lived 10 minutes from there, I would play it every day. The variety of hole locations on the North is pretty impressive.

I would love to, but getting on isn't easy. And i know alot of guys who belong there but seldom play there.

[Jim Franklin]

Old 18



Has anyone else done this? On Sunday, my wayward approach was in the far right bunker which left a fairly long explosion shot to a back pin. I caught the ball a tad thin and it hit the roof of the adjacent buiding, bounced off the dormer, rolled down into the gutter guard and stayed on the roof. Oops.

[Dan Herrmann]

I play across the street all the time, and I think I've seen people on the North course 4-5 times all year.  It just isn't getting much play.  Then again, the old course isn't getting nearly as much play as it did 5-10 years ago (solely based on my spying from our 12/13 holes, which have a great view into both courses)

PS - Does the old course utilize the original Fazio routing?
PPS - Isn't the design credit for the old course given to "Doak/Hanse"?  (http://www.stonewalllinks.com/pdf/Stonewall_brochure.pdf)

[Jim Franklin]

How is the neighboring French Creek? (sorry to thread jack)

[Rory Connaughton]

Jim - French Creek is a blast.  some great holes and a very welcoming membership.  Conditions are strong.

As for the Old vs. North,  I think the North is both more interesting and more playable though I agree with McKeever that the 12th on the Old is one phenomenal short 4.  I find the Old to be more difficult as a general proposition.  I'm curious as to what others think but I think the routing on the front of the Old is challenged by the walk up to tee and then back up another hill to 6 tee. 1, 3, 9, 10-13, 17 and 18 are real standouts on the Old.

[Kevin_D]

I play across the street all the time, and I think I've seen people on the North course 4-5 times all year.  It just isn't getting much play.  Then again, the old course isn't getting nearly as much play as it did 5-10 years ago (solely based on my spying from our 12/13 holes, which have a great view into both courses)

PS - Does the old course utilize the original Fazio routing?
PPS - Isn't the design credit for the old course given to "Doak/Hanse"?  (http://www.stonewalllinks.com/pdf/Stonewall_brochure.pdf)

I've only been down to play the North course 3 times this year (and old 2x) and there were several groups out each time I was there, so I think the North is getting a bit more play than you are implying.  But of course, both courses get way less play than your typical suburban Philly club - which is part of the whole point, you can just go there and get on without a problem.

I think the answers are "yes" and "no" to the other two questions, but Tom Doak can obviously say more accurately.

[Tom_Doak]

The permits for the Old course had been applied for based on the Fazio routing, so I was "strongly encouraged" to keep the routing pretty close to what they had approvals for.  The course sticks to that routing with the following changes:

#3 - green site shorter and moved to left
#4 - tees moved to right  [Fazio's plan had a downhill par-3 between #3 and #4, so what's now the 8th hole was #9 coming back to the clubhouse]
#6 - tees moved up so you could carry the creek from the tee [changed from par-5 to par-4]
#12 - tees moved up (shortened hole)
#14 - green moved to right

#9, 10, 18 - reversed direction.  Fazio's 10th hole played back up the 18th fairway toward the tee, and his 18th hole played from #10 green to the start of #10 fairway and then doglegged left toward the middle tee on #9, near the lake.  I could never figure out what was going to make a player want to play his 18th hole as a dogleg, instead of playing down what is now the 18th fairway on the direct line to cut 50 yards off the hole.

As to Gil's co-design credit for the course, I'm not sure what the club says to anyone anymore.  One of the three founders thought he should have a credit on the course when we were done with it, and I did not object to that.  But, it bothered me that some people assumed that Gil had really done the course, because he got name credit for it.  We both lived in Philadelphia for six months while it was being built, with our families; I spent twice as many days on site at Stonewall as on any project I've built since.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

I took advantage of the unseasonably warm weather (70 degrees in Philly) by playing Stonewall North yesterday with fellow GCA members Joe Bausch, Mike Cirba and Rory C. I first played the course in 2008, before I knew much (or anything) about golf course architecture. I liked it then, but I love it now.

What a blast the course is to play! It gives golfers a ton of different options and allows players to attempt some great recovery shots, if they happen to find any trouble (there's not a ton of water hazards or O.B. on the golf course. Some of the fairway bunkers will definitely add a stroke to your score if you happen to find them, but that's what they're supposed to do, no?

The greens! The greens are very special...there is not a bad one in the bunch. Some have more slope than others, but they're not unfair; they really make you think about and look at your putt's line carefully. They're a really special set of greens...one of the best set that I have had the privilege of playing. 

Here are a few photos from our enjoyable round:

No. 1



No. 3



No. 4



No. 8



No. 14

[Mike_Young]

I like both courses but could play the old course everyday.  I think the Mid Am is there next year and maybe that will bring it some hype....

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