Softening green contours when switching from bent to ultradwarf?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Here in the Triangle, the switch is definitely on.  Hope Valley and Old Chatham have both switched and Duke is doing so this summer.  Talking to one of the pros at Duke yesterday, she said the green slopes "would not be touched".  Should be interesting as those greens do have quite a bit of slope, and as a public course, firmer/faster may lead to longer round times.

My experience playing Old Chatham last year was that front pins were inaccessible--the greens were too firm and fast and green surrounds were too soggy to allow a run-up shot (kind of like Bay Hill a few years ago).  As the greens continue to grow in, they seem to hold a bit better and the club has moved to improve drainage and firm up the green surrounds.  That in mind, the next year or two may be touch-and-go at Duke as the greens grow in; run-up shots are not an option on most holes out there  .

Im going to guess that some of the problem at Old Chatham is that the greens are brand new, less than a year old. The firmness of brand new greens will make any other surfaces seem soft. In a year or so, some thatch will accumulate and the greens will soften up a bite.

[Rob Hallford]

Tony--I was assured that was the case.  The adjustments they've made around the greens have really helped, firming up the playing surface, and I expect the overall "maintenance meld" will only get better as the greens grow in.  In your experience, how long does it take for these types of greens to start holding shots better?  Part of the sogginess around the greens this past winter was just a fact of life for dormant Bermuda on top of clay soil.

I'll be interested to see whether Duke can afford to weather such conditions for a year (or two?).  I think most of the course drains pretty well (notable exceptions on 6 and 13), but very few greens offer a legit run-up shot option.  Maybe front pins are lost in the interim?  Regardless, I'm worried that pace of play takes a permanent hit.  There are regulars at Duke (who will adjust to conditions), but a large portion of play comes from hotel guests at the Washington Duke.  Combine that with wrong-sided short game shots going from difficult to potentially unmanageable and 4 hours becomes 5 in a hurry.

[Frank Giordano]

In the case of Hyland Golf Club in Southern Pines, where there are several large, very undulant greens, the switch to Champions ultradwarf bermuda greens required extending the putting surfaces an average of about 20%.  There was, to my knowledge, no reshaping of the contours of the greens.  The combination of the greens' size and speed make them very challenging to putt for most players.

[Matt Wharton]

Ed,  Thanks for the kind words!  Sorry I didn't see this post back when it was more lively but we have been very busy at Carolina lately.  I find the differing opinions to be quite interesting.  I would agree with Kris the current contours are acceptable but I know a good percentage of the membership would most likely disagree...mainly because they feel entitled to a two-putt from anywhere on the putting surface and that just isn't the case on our greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have found that most courses that are concerned with softer contours due to ultradwarfs are doing so for the dormant months when ultradwarfs speed can run exceedingly high.  Just don't put the pins there...

This whole thread makes me sad.........because most on this forum are the voices of reason in the silly, ego driven quest for higher speeds, bigger dicks, and more boring golf

Reducing tilt to accomodate speeds because "you can" may keep the putting challenge the same,
(although I would argue it takes far more skill to judge an uphill putt on a 4% slope stimping at 9 and then turn around and have the same putt downhill, than it does to judge the same putt on a 2% slope at 12+.
Uphill and downhill become almost the same  )

but reducing slope definitely negates angles for approach and the effect of shortsiding oneself where the green runs away.
I will grant that at least the bermuda replacing the bent is usually firmer so some of the tiltbounce loss is negated.

Why not accelerate the race to the bottom and just use polished concrete and 0% slope?
Stimp 'em at 40 and astroturf those fairways too

Jeff,

I couldn't agree more

Where will softening end ?

When all the greens are boringly flat ?

Why squeeze the character, that which distinguishes holes and courses from one another, out of the greens ?

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