[Brett_Morrissy]

We are talking private courses, right?

Mac, I've edited my post for your pleasure.

[Jim Nelson]

Jim,
Tough to justify joining (that's assuming I could!) SH or BN living in Australia,  so although an impossibility, if it were, I would not hesitate.

Yes, I agree which is the point of my comment.  Just how close does one have to be to one of the private destination courses to justify joining? What if one of your friends is a member and you can go with him once or twice a year?  I think when a club becomes closed to new members and a waiting list develops, the sense of exclusivity goes way up and it becomes much more desirable such as  with SH.  Others in the region are still scrambling.  If you look at my first comment, it seems that the best way for a club to succeed assuming a great course is for a very discriminating owner to have very deep pockets.  Gotta create an exclusive club vibe then grind it out.  Or make it really easy in the beginning, then lock it down asap.  Getting people to join and not just visit is the key.  It's just very tough to do.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do having local members help? I know of clubs that have a cap on locals so it doesn't get crowded for national members but it would seem that locals pay a large portion of the bills.

Tommy,

Doubtful that Streamsong or Sand Hills would have a significant cadre of local members due to the remote nature of the sites.

And, could the locals afford the fare ?

Pat, the first time I went to Sand Hills was the year after it opened with a friend who was a member.  I seem to recall that National Members paid a paltry $25000 initiation fee. Local members paid about $6000.  I was told that Dick Youngscap wanted good relationships with the locals. That is my recollection. It could be flawed and the numbers may not be exactly right but they are close.
Secession and Ballyhack both have caps on local members.

Tommy,

How did he define "locals" ?

The population of the town of Mullen is only 508 people, men, women and children.

North Platte is a few hours away and wouldn't be considered "local" by most standards.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Pat, what do you think is a fair definition of a local? Time or distance by car, zip code, or some other municipal boundary?

Assume one would need to balance the cost to a local with travel time/convenience and connection wanting to be maintained with the local community?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, what do you think is a fair definition of a local? Time or distance by car, zip code, or some other municipal boundary?

I think it varies by the specific site.

But, with a total population, men, women, children, old, young and babies of 508, I doubt many golfers are being extracted from that pool.

And, I wouldn't consider North Platte "local"

Assume one would need to balance the cost to a local with travel time/convenience and connection wanting to be maintained with the local community?

Some would consider a 40 mile drive local, unless they had to commute from NJ over the GW, onto the CBE, over the TNB, to the CIE to the LIE.

That can take days during the week

[Tommy Williamsen]

Do having local members help? I know of clubs that have a cap on locals so it doesn't get crowded for national members but it would seem that locals pay a large portion of the bills.

Tommy,

Doubtful that Streamsong or Sand Hills would have a significant cadre of local members due to the remote nature of the sites.

And, could the locals afford the fare ?

Pat, the first time I went to Sand Hills was the year after it opened with a friend who was a member.  I seem to recall that National Members paid a paltry $25000 initiation fee. Local members paid about $6000.  I was told that Dick Youngscap wanted good relationships with the locals. That is my recollection. It could be flawed and the numbers may not be exactly right but they are close.
Secession and Ballyhack both have caps on local members.

Tommy,

How did he define "locals" ?

The population of the town of Mullen is only 508 people, men, women and children.

North Platte is a few hours away and wouldn't be considered "local" by most standards. [/color


Pat, I'm not sure how locals were defined but I do know that local for Nebraska is different than those in NJ.  I live one summer in western North Dakota.  The nearest grocery store was 40 miles or 25 minutes away. Folks who live in the plains drive long distances for everything[/color].

[Brett_Morrissy]

Our young fella (at high school) that fore caddied for us at SH, I think he travelled 1.5hrs each way, each day, to work over the summer !
So, if it were me, 2 hours by car would be reasonable for a local. Clearly a different definition of 'local' in or near a highly populated area.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Our young fella (at high school) that fore caddied for us at SH, I think he travelled 1.5hrs each way, each day, to work over the summer !
So, if it were me, 2 hours by car would be reasonable for a local. Clearly a different definition of 'local' in or near a highly populated area.

2 hours each way ?

And within that radius, how many could afford to belong to SH ?

[Michael Whitaker]

I'm surprised that some national clubs have not adopted the Disney Vacation Club model of membership where you can buy into the club at various levels depending on the amount of use you plan to get out of the facility. Some folks only want to visit once per year for a few days with a couple of family members or friends. Others want to visit frequently or for longer periods with a large group. Disney allows for this and interested membership candidates can taylor their financial commitment accordingly. Each year the members are charged a share of the operating expenses based on their ownership percentage. Works like a charm.

I think the reason many good membership candidates don't join a destination golf club is that it's often hard to justify the total cost of visiting more than once per year. The owner is not the only one that needs deep pockets. Making a long term commitment to visit a distant club two or three times per year takes deep pockets as well.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Our young fella (at high school) that fore caddied for us at SH, I think he travelled 1.5hrs each way, each day, to work over the summer !
So, if it were me, 2 hours by car would be reasonable for a local. Clearly a different definition of 'local' in or near a highly populated area.

2 hours each way ?

And within that radius, how many could afford to belong to SH ?

Pat, yep, if I lived within 2 hrs of SH, I would have no problem travelling to play, maybe with an occasional "sleepover"

I have no idea how many could afford it, how many do you think and how much do you think it would cost  the locals to be viable?

[Scott Warren]

A small aside - Mucci needs to find a new navigator. North Platte is not "a few hours away from Sand Hills" it is 70-80 minutes' drive, quite comfortably "local" in that kind of neighbourhood.

[Bill_McBride]

The usual problem with national memberships is when (like a moron) you take a moment and calculate your average cost per round.  Big mistake!

[William_G]

Prairie Dunes appears to have a good mix of locals and nationals.

PD is more of a country club for locals and golf club for the nationals.

Seems to work very well for all. 

[Jim Colton]

I'm surprised that some national clubs have not adopted the Disney Vacation Club model of membership where you can buy into the club at various levels depending on the amount of use you plan to get out of the facility. Some folks only want to visit once per year for a few days with a couple of family members or friends. Others want to visit frequently or for longer periods with a large group. Disney allows for this and interested membership candidates can taylor their financial commitment accordingly. Each year the members are charged a share of the operating expenses based on their ownership percentage. Works like a charm.

I think the reason many good membership candidates don't join a destination golf club is that it's often hard to justify the total cost of visiting more than once per year. The owner is not the only one that needs deep pockets. Making a long term commitment to visit a distant club two or three times per year takes deep pockets as well.

I've often thought that the initiation and dues should reflect the fact that it's a second club for most members, and that dues should be approximately what would cost for 1 1/2 trips out there. Even though many potential members could probably easily afford to pay $5 or $10k a year without breaking a sweat, you still have to get past that cost rationalization hurdle. Price it a 1 1/2 trips, and a guy can justify it by thinking to himself, if I can get out here twice a year, it's worth it. Any more than that, it's gravy. If for some reason I only make it out once in a given year, you probably aren't going to leave over it.

It would be interesting to know the revenue breakdown between member dues, member usage and hosted guest revenue. In other words, if you had 150 members at $5,000, what would be the equivalent number of members you'd need with dues at $3,000? Any guess?

[Patrick_Mucci]

A small aside - Mucci needs to find a new navigator. North Platte is not "a few hours away from Sand Hills" it is 70-80 minutes' drive, quite comfortably "local" in that kind of neighbourhood.

Scott,

I relied on one of my staff assistants who was born and raised in North Platte.
She went to high school there and her family still lives there.
You say 1.33 hours, she says 2 hours.
Where, exactly in North Platte, are you starting from ?
Dillon Court ?   Sunset Dr ?

[Scott Warren]

Paterico,

You said: "North Platte is a few hours away."

A few.

Now you're saying two hours (where I'm from, two = "a couple").

Still, it's not two hours if you're sticking to the speed limits. North Platte isn't a dot on the map, but it's also not 40mins from one end to the other!

All in good fun.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paterico,

You said: "North Platte is a few hours away."

That's correct

A few.

That's correct

Now you're saying two hours (where I'm from, two = "a couple").

I'm fairly certain that "a few" hours and "two hours" aren't mutually exclusive

Still, it's not two hours if you're sticking to the speed limits. North Platte isn't a dot on the map, but it's also not 40mins from one end to the other!
Wouldn't that depend upon local traffic or is your estimate based on leaving the house at 3:00 am ?

All in good fun.

[Chris Johnston]

North Platte airport to Sand Hills is 60-65 miles.

It's an easy and stunning 1 hour drive.  Maybe 1:10 if there are stray cows or hay wagons on the road.

Dismal River is an hour and twenty...roughly 20 Mins from SH.

I'm driving to North Platte in a few hours.  Will advise if different.

[JESII]

I would say "a few" is NEARLY two hours but not AS NEAR AS POSSIBLE to two hours...

[Adam Clayman]

So much ignorance, so little time.

If you were a member at the town course in Mullen, you were allowed access to SH. I'm not sure on the costs, but I think they were only charged a paltry green fee, and were allowed to bring a guest.

As for drive times. Out here, driving an hour is equivalent to going 15 minutes in a big city. 2 hours is nothing and 3 hour drives are common place. Hell, I'd drive 90 minutes just to eat at Bella Italia.

IMO, the difference between the successful remote courses and the non, is how the owner treated the project. Treated as a process, expanding as demand dictated, is the more successful approach.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

North Platte airport to Sand Hills is 60-65 miles.

It's an easy and stunning 1 hour drive.  Maybe 1:10 if there are stray cows or hay wagons on the road.

Dismal River is an hour and twenty...roughly 20 Mins from SH.

I'm driving to North Platte in a few hours.  Will advise if different.

Chris,

So it's your position that the locals FLY into North Platte ?

Rt 30 to 56G to 70, all major arteries and very little local traffic and lights.

Let us know your time, door to door, both ways.

Just remember, rental cars have both black boxes and GPS that allow the rental company to analyze your diving habits (speeding) and that surcharges/fees/fines/rates may be in your future.

[Chris Johnston]

PM

We have 3 members from North Platte, and none from Mullen.  Maybe another 12 from Scottsbluff/Kearney/Holdridge, etc.

There really aren't local members out this way conforming to any traditional view.  I would think Pine Valley is similar.

Better way to look at it is "area members" (Lincoln, Omaha, Denver, Wichita, Minneapolis, etc.) in, then national members.  Nationals range from coast-to-coast, even oveseas.

One of the NP members does fly up to the local grass strip.    Quite a few people use it.  "Big iron" flies into North Platte - long runway/great FBO.

Nobody comes up for one casual round.

[Brett_Morrissy]

IMO, the difference between the successful remote courses and the non, is how the owner treated the project. Treated as a process, expanding as demand dictated, is the more successful approach.  

Adam, can you expand on what you mean by "treated as a process" please?  

[Adam Clayman]

Brett, Dick Youngscap treated Sh as a process. He didn't go out and build a huge monstrous ego inflating clubhouse and accommodations. He built modestly and only expanded the number of beds as they were needed.

Bayside, also treated their project as a process. It took some time, but they turned profitable after 10 years.

Mike Keiser's Bandon is also an example. I doubt subsequent courses and accommodations would've been built had there not been sufficient demand.


Dismal didnt treat it as a process and just assumed if they built a nice clubhouse and cabins, people would join. People did join, but clearly their upfront nut, was just too big to sustain it as a viable business. Chris came in as the third owner and was able to purchase it all for pennies on the dollar. (Ok, Maybe nickels)

Streamsong is an outlier as they are such a huge pocket, they can afford to sit through the time it takes for them to become a profit center.

Hope that helps explain what I meant.

[Jim Hoak]

They're FUN.  We seem to often forget that golf is not a life-or-death experience; it's a game.  Those that are successful create a fun experience for the golfer.

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