News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2013, 04:32:12 PM »
Kelly,

How would you propose closing a public course that provides access to a public park?

Playing "challenge" aside, the first hole is such a safety liability there little reason to save it. Convert the fairway to a short game area, preserve the first green as a practice putting green. Just start on 2, add length on 6 & 8 and create a new drop-down par-3 after the existing 6th skyline green -- this new hole would be the par-3 hole we "played" yesterday" and it's fine) and you've eliminated playing across the road. Then just play existing 7 as a short, nearly drivable par-4. The back nine is already wonderful and this way you'd reduce the obvious liabilities of the front nine.

I have played 7 as a par 5 and more recently as the drivable par 4. I thought the drivable 4 was a pretty cool hole and certainly provides some options. It grew on me only after the round had ended and I began to think of the sequence of holes. It may not end up being the final version but I thought it worked.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2013, 04:33:52 PM »
It was a terrific day.

The playing surfaces were superb, especially considering the weather over the past month or so.

Fairways were tight and the greens fast and true.
Mark and his staff have done a remarkable job. who is this Mark fellow?  I'd like to meet him!

Brian,

My apologies, I had just gotten off the phone with Dr Mark McBride, an orthopedic physician/surgeon and my brain was on disconnect mode.

He's a terrific fellow and a terrific golfer.

You should meet him................. socially, not professionally.

Me, I'm in his office every other month.



Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2013, 06:45:01 PM »
A big thanks to Jeff, Brian, and the two Steves for a great event.
It was refreshing to hear the owner, Jeff, discuss the course in terms of strategy, angles, and playability.  As Cirba alluded to at dinner, he sounded like an architect.

And to echo KBM's comments about the green expansions, Jeff Stein mentioned the same thing during our round.  They've blended in nicely.  Brian, John and staff should be proud.

I was paired with Jeff Stein who was on the construction crew during the transformation. And after our first hole, Brian Chapin was nice enough to allow their young intern join us for the rest of the round.  Got some great local knowledge about the course, and the Nyack girls. :)

The course was really fun to play.  We had a blast putting on those greens.  And watching well-struch approaches roll towards to hole.  All of our approach shots on I think #12 rolled up the hill from the left on the back of the green then back down to the hole location to tap in range.

Even better was Steve Scott demonstrating to us how to hit our 60 yard approach on 15?  or 16?  "It's just a little trap hook wedge to the right side of the green and then watch it funnel down to the hole over there on the left."  He sounded like Johnny Miller.  He then hit exactly that.  It was awesome.  He, Jeff, Brian and Steve L couldn't have been nicer, driving around all day and chit-chatting on a number of holes.

The best part of the day was the Risotto station during dinner.  And watching Ryan hit his driver.  Damn impressive!

Thanks to everyone at Paramount for a very welcoming day.

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2013, 09:57:08 PM »
First of all I would like to thank all who attended the golf outing at The Paramount Club.

I hope that you enjoyed the golf setting as much as I first did when I saw it over two and half years ago.  I say golf setting because of the nature of most golden age New York golf clubs you won't have many distant views and sometimes the space feels a little crowded.  You don't get that sense at PC

The golf holes individualy have a character all of their own and the greens complexes are some of the best I have been involved with.  They are so varied and the back anchor points on the greens are some of the most creative features I have seen.

The work carreid out in house by Brian Chapin and his staff along with the shapers who had a very creative hand in bringing back all of the features has really turned this golf course into a true test of golf.  Plenty wide enough in the fairways to attract the novice player but greens willing to test the best players.  Kelly is correct, having young talent around only makes these projects 100x better.

I have said it many times before, it's the people.  It starts with an owner willing to do the right thing.  No committees here, which for the success of our work was the major factor.



I apoligize for not being able to attend but a series of events that happened in a small window of  24 hours limited my travel for 8 weeks ( to my fornt porch and back)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2013, 11:07:29 PM »
Jim,

You were missed.

But, you did reinforce my decision not to have my knee replaced. ;D

Coincidently, I ran into Jeff today and we discussed the road issue on # 1 and # 7.

I was also thinking that maybe the 13th green needed something on the left flank, visually.

Hope you recover and feel better ASAP

Mike Sweeney

Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #80 on: July 04, 2013, 06:22:25 AM »
Just an idea.

Take Patrick's idea and combine the existing par 3 #18 and the fairway of #1 and put the new green before the road. However this would be your new #1 hole. The now 18th tee (new #1 tee) is very close to the range, so there is easy flow from range to #1 tee. You can build a berm behind the new #1 green to protect cars.

Walk/ride across the road and up the hill to the current #2 tee, which can now be made longer when you abandon the #1 green.

Take Brad's suggestion and add a par 3 after #6 for a new #7.

Walk across the road and #7 now becomes #8, a now short drivable par 4. They were popular at Merion !

Finish on the existing #17, a reasonable walk to the clubhouse.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 07:00:23 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Mark Steffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2013, 07:01:18 AM »
Just an idea.

Take Patrick's idea and combine the existing par 3 #18 and the fairway of #1 and put the new green before the road. However this would be your new #1 hole. The now 18th tee (new #1 tee) is very close to the range, so there is easy flow from range to #1 tee. You can build a berm behind the new #1 green to protect cars.

Walk/ride across the road and up the hill to the current #2 tee, which can now be made longer when you abandon the #1 green.

Take Brad's suggestion and add a par 3 after #6 for a new #7.

#7 now becomes #8, a now short drivable par 4.

Finish on the existing #17, a reasonable walk to the clubhouse.

most of Phil's lunch talk centered on how 18 is one of only four existing 'reef' holes done by AWT.  not sure the traction that would be seen on blowing that up after discovering it.

i also thought that 6 would be split in two.   the existing tee box used for a par 3 6th hole with the green situated behind the two fronting bunkers in the fairway that are now not in play.... then Steve mentioned that Jeff had purchased the left left of 6 fairway and the club would like to put a new tee back in there (roughly lengthwise where the existing tee is now, but in the woods) and utilize the skyline green now used on #6 for a new hole #7.

Brian Chapin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2013, 07:11:51 AM »
Not to sound like a broken record, but Jim is 100% correct.  The people on the ground make all the difference and we were blessed to work with some really talented people.  This picture is taken as we were preparing to re-sod the ninth hole this spring.

It would be too much for me to name every person in this picture, but of special note:

Jon Hill - Senior Assistant Superintendent
Derek Baxter - Assistant Superintendent
Ryan Yonce - Project Manager/Supervisor
Jeff Stein - Drainage/Shaping

Not in the picture but also critical were our two very talented and incredibly creative shapers: "world famous" Tony Russell and George Waters aka "Megamind"


Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #83 on: July 04, 2013, 08:07:14 AM »
Gentlemen (and Pat ;D),

   Thank you all for attending and most importantly for so passionately reviewing and opining on our beloved Paramount! It was great to see you all, catch up and have a little fun...even if it cost me $1 to Mucci.....a small price to pay to avoid him in the future, no? ;D

   Your creativity and ideas about how to solve our problematic road holes are interesting and thoughtful, but not without some previous consideration. Beginning with #1, we view it as most definitely our greatest potential danger liability and while a challenging opener, a hole that might be best retired, it's fairway replaced with a short-game practice area, and it's green become the practice putting green.

   Those suggesting we petition the township and county to move, alter, or control the flow of traffic on Zukor Rd would see their craniums implode if they knew what kind of costs, time, lobbying, and herculean legal efforts it would take to try to change it's path, traffic or replacement. Trust me when I tell you we've looked long and hard at ALL our options re: Zukor Rd! Sadly, what was once an internal horse & buggy path is now permanently a considerably protected N-S county artery.

   Along the same lines, Jim, myself, Brian and Jeff have been continually examining all the potential options to eliminate the road from future playing impact. The creation of a new drop-shot par 3 after # 6 coupled with the removal of #1 would unquestionably mitigate the road-related issues. Such a hole could have new diagonal tees built where the trees exist at present on the right(East)side of the hill and might range from 120-160yds.

  On our early am tour, Brad and myself saw what Jim already had.....#'s 6 and 8 could be well lengthened to re-capture the reduced distance (btw...we don't care about adding any raw distance for distance's sake) with the latter becoming a very sturdy par 5. The existing #7 would become#8 and played as a drivable par 4 and would likely see a bit more tweaking and re-defensing of the front of it's existing green site. Of course, the existing and infamous L-shaped "Lapper" bunker at the end of the fairway could be enlarged to upset, irritate, disturb, infuriate, annoy everyone :D

  Those of you who like the notion of returning to the previous state of the hole and play it as a longer par 5, using the far back old tees, share the sentiment of many of our older members. Such a play necessitated the selection of a shorter club to lay-up to the fairway pad on the near-side of the road with another shorter-club 2nd shot. The problem inherent to this solution was the redundancy of again crossing Zukor Rd on a shot (albeit with a short club), rear-elimination of real risk-reward, and the forced removal of driver from the bigger-hitter's hands. The view from those tees is indeed breath-taking but it's a blind downhill shot that requires little strategic thought.

  Our existing mid-hill tees have permitted a temporary solution giving the golfer adequate room observe oncoming traffic and safely hit over the road, however, the compromise is a semi-neutered par 4. Thus, you all can now understand the full matrix of our road-related issues. Mike Sweeney's idea of essentially lengthening #18 into a new #1 is interesting, but ultimately flawed as it once-again introduces a safety issue...this time creating a slicer's delight into the pro-shop, locker-room, cart-staging area and member's parking-lot. :-\. It also would destroy what many of us feel is the marvelously unique Reef hole at 18.

  Our goal was to get Jim's immediate and through restoration finished, roll-out a golf course we knew our members, our guests and ourselves could take pride in and freshly enjoy. Our philopsohy was to never add distance for distance's sake nor protect some arbitrary par# (though I'll admit that we'd certainly work to preserve a par of no less than 70). Our only competitive aspirations are to host Amateur events for the Met section and perhaps one-day a USGA Senior Am.

  Phil Young worked diligently to dig-up every shred of evidence of Tilly's original hand and Jim worked equally hard to preserve or enhance just that. Brian, his crew, and Jeff "Smiley" Stein and his peers all poured 100% of their collective energy and soul into executing these ideas. Jeff M gave his 100% support like only few owners in this game can. Finally, my job, as the club's & course's "Consigliere" was the easiest, just making sure all the ingredients gelled, the proverbial "cake" would rise, and we'd leave this ground better than we found it. It's been a true labor of love.

Thanks again to all for coming out and affirming our efforts and beliefs.

Now...please resume giving us your opinions and sharing any warmth you have about the place with your peers...we are listening and appreciative!!

« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 08:17:58 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci

Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #84 on: July 04, 2013, 08:30:36 AM »
Steve,

NGLA has a similar clubhouse issue off the first tee, and it works pretty well.

I'll be back later.

I'm sure there are several viable solutions, just don't rush into any one of them.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #85 on: July 04, 2013, 10:14:52 AM »
First I want to thank Brian, Steve, Steve, Jeff and everyone at Paramount for hosting a wonderful day.

Second, about the routing, there's a lot to like about it and 1 thing to dislike.

The routing is remarkably compact and saves ground by basically connecting a series of parallel playing corridors that stay relatively near the house: 18-1/7, 2/3-4, 5/6, 8/17, 10/11/16, and12/13/14/15. 9 (and maybe 1/7) is the only real connector hole.

As compact as the routing is Tillinghast managed to get different character into the parallel holes.  

2, after the hike up the hill, rewards one with a plunge into a long blind 5 along the flank of the ridge, with the return admirably broken into a devilish Short and a blind 4 onto the plateau.

5 and 6 provide a fall away 4 followed by another blind 4 but this time into a swale below a skyline green.

 7's contemporary travails are chronicalled, but the original design is a fantastic way to return to the estate.  Everyone loves popping one off a plateau. 

12/13/14/15 are a great set of parallel holes that show how to use a high point on the property line well, even without significant space to run into the ridge. 12 is a classic dogleg around the flank of a hill that leaves hitters that cannot shape their shots out of position into a challenging green.  It takes advantage of the extra space near the pool to get to the ridge in 2.

13 uses the high ground to tee back out to a long four to a built up green. 14 returns with a short 4 to the reverse Redan-like green that extends along the high line, a distinctly different green complex than 12 that also makes great use of the ridge.  Finally 15 tees off the high point to a longer 4 that carries the course back home.  4 holes that make great use of an important feature, a small ridge, have parallel playing corridors, but distinct characteristics. 14, in particular, is a fantastic hole IMHO.  Left for the angle brings in a ferocious bunker.  Right brings in two even more fearsome bunkers on the line of flight of a touchy flighted ball to a narrow target.  Excellent, design.

We started at 9, so didn't have the sense of returning that one would have at 17, but 8 and 17 also deliver a markedly different experience, carrying you down to the second segment of the course in a fun downhill hole, the bringing you back up to home in a longer 5.  17 didn't seem uphill until I looked back from the green, but that may be because we hadn't played 8 yet.

As far as the reef hole goes, 4 of us all either landed the green or flew it from the blue tees.  Is there enough land or are there tees that take the hole back to a long (250-290) 3 that might make the other lines of play considerations?

I would love to see the course back to Mahaffey's line less model, as stated in the after dinner talks.  But as turned out it was fabulous.  Now how do I move to New City so I can join?
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Brian Chapin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #86 on: July 04, 2013, 11:06:37 AM »

I would love to see the course back to Mahaffey's line less model, as stated in the after dinner talks.  But as turned out it was fabulous.  Now how do I move to New City so I can join?

David, I'm not sure i understand this last comment.  Could you please explain?

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2013, 11:26:48 AM »
First I want to thank Brian, Steve, Steve, Jeff and everyone at Paramount for hosting a wonderful day.

Second, about the routing, there's a lot to like about it and 1 thing to dislike.

The routing is remarkably compact and saves ground by basically connecting a series of parallel playing corridors that stay relatively near the house: 18-1/7, 2/3-4, 5/6, 8/17, 10/11/16, and12/13/14/15. 9 (and maybe 1/7) is the only real connector hole.

As compact as the routing is Tillinghast managed to get different character into the parallel holes.  

2, after the hike up the hill, rewards one with a plunge into a long blind 5 along the flank of the ridge, with the return admirably broken into a devilish Short and a blind 4 onto the plateau.

5 and 6 provide a fall away 4 followed by another blind 4 but this time into a swale below a skyline green.

 7's contemporary travails are chronicalled, but the original design is a fantastic way to return to the estate.  Everyone loves popping one off a plateau. 

12/13/14/15 are a great set of parallel holes that show how to use a high point on the property line well, even without significant space to run into the ridge. 12 is a classic dogleg around the flank of a hill that leaves hitters that cannot shape their shots out of position into a challenging green.  It takes advantage of the extra space near the pool to get to the ridge in 2.

13 uses the high ground to tee back out to a long four to a built up green. 14 returns with a short 4 to the reverse Redan-like green that extends along the high line, a distinctly different green complex than 12 that also makes great use of the ridge.  Finally 15 tees off the high point to a longer 4 that carries the course back home.  4 holes that make great use of an important feature, a small ridge, have parallel playing corridors, but distinct characteristics. 14, in particular, is a fantastic hole IMHO.  Left for the angle brings in a ferocious bunker.  Right brings in two even more fearsome bunkers on the line of flight of a touchy flighted ball to a narrow target.  Excellent, design.

We started at 9, so didn't have the sense of returning that one would have at 17, but 8 and 17 also deliver a markedly different experience, carrying you down to the second segment of the course in a fun downhill hole, the bringing you back up to home in a longer 5.  17 didn't seem uphill until I looked back from the green, but that may be because we hadn't played 8 yet.

As far as the reef hole goes, 4 of us all either landed the green or flew it from the blue tees.  Is there enough land or are there tees that take the hole back to a long (250-290) 3 that might make the other lines of play considerations?

I would love to see the course back to Mahaffey's line less model, as stated in the after dinner talks.  But as turned out it was fabulous.  Now how do I move to New City so I can join?

I'll add this figure to hopefully aid David's post:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #88 on: July 04, 2013, 01:09:15 PM »
Great day!
Thanks to Steve S, Brian and Steve L

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #89 on: July 04, 2013, 01:46:27 PM »

I would love to see the course back to Mahaffey's line less model, as stated in the after dinner talks.  But as turned out it was fabulous.  Now how do I move to New City so I can join?

David, I'm not sure i understand this last comment.  Could you please explain?

Brian, I think it was your comment, but maybe one of the other principals, that the rough was a little higher than typical and that the demarcation between fairway and green clearer due to the MetAm qualifier the day before.  Then I thought someone explicitly referenced Don Mahaffey's theory on line-less conditioning as the model you were using, and that some subtle changes would be made to get back to that ideal now that the MetAm was over.

As far as moving, I wish I could justify a national membership but the only I could join would be to be a local :-)
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

scott_wood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #90 on: July 04, 2013, 02:14:17 PM »
". Mike Sweeney's idea of essentially lengthening #18 into a new #1 is interesting, but ultimately flawed as it once-again introduces a safety issue...this time creating a slicer's delight into the pro-shop, locker-room, cart-staging area and member's parking-lot. ".

Steve, Maybe that is why Mike is suggesting that revision.......
he could live in infamy as all such shots, in future club lore,would be "A Sweeney" .....

Btw, and speaking 'mongst friends, he might have a ball in that carry bag of his with an asphalt tattoo, from 100 yards west of the pro shop...
Exactly the potential problem you envision.    ;)
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 02:19:13 PM by scott_wood »

Brian Chapin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2013, 06:10:56 PM »

I would love to see the course back to Mahaffey's line less model, as stated in the after dinner talks.  But as turned out it was fabulous.  Now how do I move to New City so I can join?

David, I'm not sure i understand this last comment.  Could you please explain?

Brian, I think it was your comment, but maybe one of the other principals, that the rough was a little higher than typical and that the demarcation between fairway and green clearer due to the MetAm qualifier the day before.  Then I thought someone explicitly referenced Don Mahaffey's theory on line-less conditioning as the model you were using, and that some subtle changes would be made to get back to that ideal now that the MetAm was over.

As far as moving, I wish I could justify a national membership but the only I could join would be to be a local :-)

I'm not sure who gets the credit for coming up with the idea of "seamless" mowing patterns, but the concept was introduced to me by Jim Urbina.  If you have been to Bandon, Ken Nice has really perfected it.  We aren't nearly as good at it as they are at Bandon, but i think that as all of our expansions continue to mature those lines will blend even better.

It is true that we established more of a front edge to the greens for the Met Amateur SQR that we held the day before to avoid any rules issues.  With that behind us we will continue working on blending those transitions.

Jeffrey Stein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2013, 07:31:09 PM »
I can also vouch for Jim and how much he preached the importance of mowing lines (or the lack thereof).  I was first exposed to this concept as a construction intern at Old Macdonald in 2009-10.  The fescue and blended transitions in Bandon are a whole other story to what Brian is working with in the Northeast.  Nonetheless, Jim and Brian did an artful job adjusting and re-adjusting the fairway mowing lines and hiding the "horizons" of rough around the greens with the new expansions. 

Ryan Yonce turned out to be a great addition to our crew working hard on many of these expansions, getting them to blend just right.
I love the smell of hydroseed in the morning.
www.steingolf.com

Mike Sweeney

Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2013, 06:42:55 AM »
Thanks Steve Lapper. Once again, I like both holes as they now play and the safety issues on #7 seems reasonable with the new lower tee.

Yesterday, I played Equinox in Vermont, and the 7th hole plays similar to #1 at Paramount, however it is a par 5:



It is not the perfect solution, but Rees Jones built up a berm in front of Union Street on the #7 driving areas, and it is marked as out of bounds. My son smoked a drive and the berm prevented him from going onto the road, and it protects the cars passing by. The next shot is way up to a green. The angles are not exactly the same, but they are similar.

Sorry, I did not have a camera with me.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #94 on: July 05, 2013, 06:44:37 AM »
What about changing the routing so that Hole 12 becomes Hole 1, Hole 11 becomes 18?

Then whatever you do with hole 1, say make it an uphill par 3, it would not be the starting hole?

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA Lollapalooza @ Paramount
« Reply #95 on: July 05, 2013, 03:06:56 PM »
Kelly,

I refer to the anchor points of the greens as large mounds usually on the back right or back left on some of the greens.  On hole # 4 for example the knob is located on the back left.  These allow for a shot to be played back against the mound if so desired from a well-placed shot in the fairway.  I have never seen these features so prominent and the anchor mound always corresponding opposite the side of position A in the landing area. Another example is the mound located on the green on hole # 15.  If you look at the slope of the green and the way it falls away from right to left you can see the reason for the ramps being put it in at the backs of some of these greens.  Coupled with the strategy of the bunkers in the fairway and the lay of the land topography they made total sense.  We just had to recapture the feature and that is what Brian Chapin did so well.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back