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Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2013, 07:43:25 PM »
Isn't it amazing how often these tournament courses have major agronomic problems, despite all the expert advice?

Why doesn't anyone ever draw the conclusion that they are pushing their greens way too hard?

When is the last time St. Andrews "lost their greens" ?

It was I who made the comparison between St. Andrews and Quail Hollow [which sounds silly when I say it that way], and I'm sorry that it caused so much time wasted arguing about the difficulties of the transition zone.

Quail Hollow is indeed in a tougher climate, which is just one more reason they shouldn't push their greens to the brink of death on a daily basis.  And when they lose grass, it shouldn't be a shock if that's what they've been doing.


Knowing that QH has a past of bacteria wilt, an issue that used to only effect Toronto bents back in the 70's and 80's. Do you think that those grasses were pushed too hard, thus causing turf loss from disease? of course not. Then, just like now, it's VERY difficult to control. There are 100's of possibilities fro turf turf loss that has nothing to do with pushing the turf too hard.  None of know the entire story of which "pushing the greens to the brink of death," may be the least of the issues.
  And no time was wasted talking about the transition zone. Just good conversations and opinions by those that live and work in the zone.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2013, 08:15:09 PM »
My limited understanding of why some courses in NC don't have Bermuda greens is that they expect to play 12 months of the year and there can be some limitations on winter play on Bermuda greens.  Am I correct about limiting play on Bermuda greens in the winter?

Brent Hutto

Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2013, 08:27:32 PM »
My limited understanding of why some courses in NC don't have Bermuda greens is that they expect to play 12 months of the year and there can be some limitations on winter play on Bermuda greens.  Am I correct about limiting play on Bermuda greens in the winter?

My club is 100 miles south of Quail Hollow. Our greens go dormant in the winter (although just barely this winter, it was so mild) and we play on them year-round. The only exception I know of is if the surface is frozen we do not play on them. Other than that, frost delays are common in the winter but most days we're playing golf by 11:0am at latest unless it's a hard freeze spell (which seldom last more than a day or two).

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2013, 12:32:23 AM »
So if you have the option of playing on dormant Bermuda (no overseed) during the winter, it is not "transition zone". Is that what you're saying Steve?

If I understand your question, Brent, then the answer is maybe.

I also did six years as a super in the St. Pete/Clearwater area on the Florida gulf coast.  Bermudagrass there absolutely goes dormant every winter, but even the researchers don't call mid-Florida "transition". When I was in Maryland back in the day, at Woodmont CC, they had 18 holes (of 36) with fairways in bermuda, and that went dormant like you wouldn't believe.

So you might play on dormant bermudagrass anywhere from Baltimore to Tampa, but dormant bermuda alone does not indicate transition.
Brent,
  You can't compare bermudagrass in Maryland to that of mid FL. While is may go "dormant" here in FL, it may only be for a few days and/or retain it's color, but not really growing. Bermudagrass in Maryland will shut down for months, going brown and not be able to recover from wear.

Perhaps in Boynton Beach bermuda doesn't have a significant dormancy, but during my time in St Pete (late '70's to early '80's) the bermuda stopped growing around the first of December and was totally brown by New Year. It broke dormancy around mid-March. We overseeded greens and tees with a ryegrass and rough bluegrass every fall. Being a resort operation the customers from up north expected to see green.
Maybe with global warming the Florida climate has changed that much in the past 30 years, but I doubt it.

Bermuda goes well dormant in central Florida, which is not in anyone's transition zone. Why else do hundreds of golf courses spend all that money on overseeding?

The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2013, 12:35:48 AM »
  And no time was wasted talking about the transition zone. Just good conversations and opinions by those that live and work in the zone.

Agreed. I don't consider this a waste of time, just interesting conversation, and not a moron in sight.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2013, 03:33:55 AM »
Thanks for the link Carl, I read it and it did contain a bit more info on the question that I asked than this thread has but that is not really saying much ::)

I am amazed that none of the experienced warm season posters on this site have any comments about ways to minimise the risk of disease in transition zone areas. It does appear that it is a lottery. Would having two greens be an option as I believe they do in Japan on many courses?

Jon

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2013, 05:38:15 AM »
Anthony:

What is the process for switching over and how long does it take? 

I'm not a turf guy and I know nothing about the subject.

John,
  A lot of it depends on if the subsurface needs to be reconstructed. If it does not need to adjusted, 12 weeks is a pretty save amount of down time.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2013, 05:48:13 AM »
I am amazed that none of the experienced warm season posters on this site have any comments about ways to minimise the risk of disease in transition zone areas. It does appear that it is a lottery. Would having two greens be an option as I believe they do in Japan on many courses?

Jon

Jon,
  We minimize the risk as much as nature allows. Turf managers have used fans, subair, monthly venting/aerification and we have access to nearly any chemical on the planet. Mother Nature is always going to win. She trumps anything. Think of the US Open in 2011-Very humid, wet week prior to the Open and the greens never were up to US Open standards. Congressional has all the tools available to man, but when mother nature takes control, there is nothing that can be done. And on warm season turf, mangers are using back sand to topdress, turf covers, high heights of cut, turf paints and even Precision Air to pump in warm air. There is only so much that can be done when you're dealing with grass in an area that 6 months out of the year is susceptible to some form of decline.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2013, 09:45:26 AM »
Anthony,

thanks for giving me some info :) Up until now I had mainly learned why something was not possible through this thread. If you were looking to stimp at 9 to 10 would this reduce the disease rate? Indeed, where do you think the HOC would be to be able to prevent bad disease outbreaks?

Jon

Brent Hutto

Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2013, 10:31:20 AM »
I don't know how realistic this is but I'll share a comment from the head pro at a club where I used to play. We were talking about whole-course maintenance rather than just putting greens.

He said the owners of the club wanting the course is absolutely tip-top shape (i.e. green and lush) 365 days a year. Of course they did not achieve that but even coming close meant they were spending money and using manpower at a ferocious clip.

He said if you were able to have a few weeks of "pretty good" appearance several times a year you'd save half your budget. If you were able to only be in top condition for a few months each in the spring and fall you could operate on a tiny fraction of the budget. The closer the owners want to 365 days of green and lush, the cost increase exponentially.

I wonder if stress on the green follows an exponential curve like that...

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2013, 12:13:24 PM »
Brent,

have you ever wondered why farmers don't grow crops all year round? It would help if many golfers, golf course owners and much of the industry would take a reality check on what is realistic.

Jon

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2013, 12:27:59 PM »
Jon,
That is a very good point. When you are in an area where you can grow either warm or cool season, you have to pick your poison. When do you want to be at your best? Make that decision and then pick the appropriate grass. Unfortunately, many decision makers often make that choice and then decide they want to be at their best 365 and that's when the problems develop.

We used to grow good bent in the hot SW because summer play was not a big deal. We used to have some pretty goof bent even in areas like the inland deserts of CA because clubs would close in the summer, or at least not expect great conditions. Now, expectations have changed and we need good golfing conditions all the time. That, IMO, is where the "pushing the grass" comments are rooted.


One other note, someone wrote that the transition zone was anywhere you had two different turfs, usually cool season on the greens and warm season on the fwys. I don't agree with that description as you bring in areas like coastal southern Cal, AZ. NM, central TX.

For me, you know you are in the transition zone when two courses in the same city (maybe even on the same street) have different grasses course wide. When you have different courses with Bermuda, zoysia, blue, and bent fwys, all within 20 miles of each other, you are in the heart of the transition zone. Green's turf isn't really a good indicator of being in a "transition" zone.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2013, 12:46:18 PM »
I think Don's phrase 'pick your poison' is right on the money. I did a piece with Ken Mangum at AAC shortly before the PGA - for which they'd moved from bent to ultradwarf on their greens - and Ken's words were different, but the meaning is the same. He said that in a transition zone you know you are going to have pain at some point of the year, and the way to make the right decision is to figure out when you are best equipped to absorb that pain. For him, at that point, the best option was to go bermuda, accepting that cold January weather might be tough, because the club has precious little play at that time of year. They have far more play in July/August than in December/January - QED, you go warm season.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2013, 07:25:25 PM »
The pain is a lot worse w bent in nc.  Late tee times and tarping some in winter is nothing compared to horribly soft greens for 2+ months or more when the rest of the course has peaked.  Tons of sudden course closures, Syringing, loud fans, limited play,etc.  Im really down on bent around charlotte.  Verticutting, etc just doesnt seem as bad as all the stuff done to barely keep bent alive.  The greenkeeper staff kill themselves sometimes from June til mid Sept and the greens generally not very good.  I like the bermuda in fhe winter as much as the bent as well..  Love how firm and true they putt



Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2013, 06:07:24 PM »
Colt Knost took the picture linked below at Quail Hollow today of one of the greens:

http://instagram.com/p/YvZ5HakYyn/

Yikes.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2013, 06:15:03 PM »
Colt Knost took the picture linked below at Quail Hollow today of one of the greens:

http://instagram.com/p/YvZ5HakYyn/

Yikes.

Any indication which one it was?

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2013, 06:21:20 PM »
Colt Knost took the picture linked below at Quail Hollow today of one of the greens:

http://instagram.com/p/YvZ5HakYyn/

Yikes.

Any indication which one it was?

Knost did not indicate which green it was in his picture, but here is one from Butch Harmon's Twitter feed (@43bh), of #9:

pic.twitter.com/cDNYNc3io1
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2013, 06:30:22 PM »
It certainly doesn't look or sound pretty, according to this USA Today article:

"Presently, six greens could create potential problems — and alter approaches to the greens. Patches of troubled grass could lead tournament officials to shorten some of the holes to allow players to use wedges and 9-irons for shots into the greens instead of 4-irons and 3-irons."

"Nos. 9, 12, 13 and 16 have trouble spots. In Monday's pro-am, temporary greens were used at 8, 10, 12 and 13. Players were asked not to hit more than one approach shot into those four greens during Tuesday's practice rounds. They were asked to limit putting on the greens, as well."


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2013/04/30/dead-greens-wells-fargo-championship/2123889/
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2013, 09:52:17 PM »
I played in the pro am yesterday.  Colt Knost's pic is of 9.  That one stetch looks like a machine damaged it.   There are more tough greens than those listed on the last post -- eg 11 and 16 also arent good.  10, 12, 14, 15, 17, and 18 will be fine. Generally the front is a lot better.  7 is the worst and 1 and 5 arent great.  8 is newly sodded but like 10 has plenty of live grass.  Green speed will vary depending and will make scoring tricky. MMany of the bad greens with stressed/dead bent putt real fast downhill and the ball backs up a mile on iron shots.  Pitches stop dead even from the rough.  The pros will get up and down w ease. 

  I feel terrible for Quail.  The course tee to green is perfect with heavy consistent rough and is as good as i have seen it.

Im sure they cant wait to bring on the bermuda.  I bet the winner doesnt  reach -10 next year with it.

Sam Morrow

Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2013, 10:19:43 PM »
It certainly doesn't look or sound pretty, according to this USA Today article:

"Presently, six greens could create potential problems — and alter approaches to the greens. Patches of troubled grass could lead tournament officials to shorten some of the holes to allow players to use wedges and 9-irons for shots into the greens instead of 4-irons and 3-irons."

"Nos. 9, 12, 13 and 16 have trouble spots. In Monday's pro-am, temporary greens were used at 8, 10, 12 and 13. Players were asked not to hit more than one approach shot into those four greens during Tuesday's practice rounds. They were asked to limit putting on the greens, as well."


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2013/04/30/dead-greens-wells-fargo-championship/2123889/

I don't feel bad for the Tour players playing these conditions but I feel sorry for Pro-Am participants who paid good money and had to play that way.

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2013, 08:01:18 AM »
They will be playing the regulation greens in today's Pro-Am so we should hear how they're holding and putting. They'll probably be able to roll all the bumps out of them so scoring could be low this week.

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2013, 09:13:45 AM »
A couple of other minor points to consider. 

1.  The new breed of ultradwarfs have not been around for terribly long.  Before that, a lot of the Bermuda strains available were not very good for putting and most people didn't feel that the change was worth it.  Courses in Dallas, which is much hotter than North Carolina, are STILL converting over because of the perception that bent is better.  Atlanta only started to convert over about 5 years ago.  East Lake was one of the first.  Atlanta is still probably less than 50-50.
2.  There was a period in the late 00's where the summers were not particularly hot and humid so there was no pressure to switch.
3.  Most courses have been under financial pressure for the last 5 years.  Nobody wants to shut their course down, drop a couple hundred grand, and potentially lose members in this economy.
4.  In some cases, supers will see it as a risk.  They've been managing bent grass for however long, and have figured out how to make it work.  They will get blamed for any problems with the new grass so why take the chance? 
5.  The Bermudas require 100% sun,a decent irrigation system, and lots of water.  A lot of courses don't have all of those things.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2013, 11:09:43 AM »
A couple of other minor points to consider. 

1.  The new breed of ultradwarfs have not been around for terribly long.  Before that, a lot of the Bermuda strains available were not very good for putting and most people didn't feel that the change was worth it.  Courses in Dallas, which is much hotter than North Carolina, are STILL converting over because of the perception that bent is better.  Atlanta only started to convert over about 5 years ago.  East Lake was one of the first.  Atlanta is still probably less than 50-50.
2.  There was a period in the late 00's where the summers were not particularly hot and humid so there was no pressure to switch.
3.  Most courses have been under financial pressure for the last 5 years.  Nobody wants to shut their course down, drop a couple hundred grand, and potentially lose members in this economy.
4.  In some cases, supers will see it as a risk.  They've been managing bent grass for however long, and have figured out how to make it work.  They will get blamed for any problems with the new grass so why take the chance? 
5.  The Bermudas require 100% sun,a decent irrigation system, and lots of water.  A lot of courses don't have all of those things.

All good points and you obviously know what you're talking about.

To be fair, bentgrass needs mostly sun too, plus a decent irrigation system and water as much as bermuda does.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Alister Matheson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2013, 11:51:37 AM »
I was fortunate enough to play in the Wednesday pro am last year and the condition of the course was fantastic ! I'm sorry to hear about the problems they have been having , and I'm sure given time they will address the issues .
Cruden Bay Links Maintenance Blog

http://crudenbaylinks.blogspot.com/

Emile Bonfiglio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2013, 02:19:16 PM »
Pics from the event via @stephanieWei









You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

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