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Carl Johnson

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Quail Hollow greens issue - Thanks
« on: April 24, 2013, 11:01:01 AM »
Here's the text from a mass e-mail notice I just received from the Golf Channel.  I'll be spectating at the Wells Fargo there next week.  Wonder what went wrong?  Can sod take hold and come together for tournament play in a week or so?

On the heels of Tiger Woods' decision to officially skip next week's Wells Fargo Championship, a report surfaced Tuesday night that multiple greens at Quail Hollow Club have been forced to undergo emergency maintenance this week.
 
According to Golfweek, both the eighth and 10th greens at the Charlotte, N.C. club were completely re-sodded Tuesday, just nine days before tournament play is set to officially begin at one of the PGA Tour's marquee events.

"They would not have been in acceptable condition," explained Andy Pazder, the Tour's senior vice president of tournament adminstration, according to the report. "It was a rather extraordinary step."
 
The report indicates that portions of both the 12th and 13th greens also received new sod Tuesday, repairs which Pazder noted were for aesthetic purposes.

Johnson Wagner, a three-time PGA Tour winner and member at Quail Hollow, reportedly played the course two weeks ago and was forced to putt on temporary greens at both Nos. 8 and 10. According to Wagner, the problems with the 10th green can be traced back to excessive top-dressing by the Tour's agronomy staff in the weeks leading up to the event.
 
"It went from a perfectly sodded green three weeks ago, which I thought was unbelievable, to being dead," he noted.
 
According to the report, Pazder disagreed with the notion that top-dressing was to blame for the issues addressed Tuesday.
 
"There were a number of factors involved which contributed to the decline in conditions of the 10th green," he explained. "But over-top-dressing was not one of them."
 
Whatever solutions are created in advance of next week's event will likely be short-lived; all 18 greens at Quail Hollow will reportedly be torn up once the final putt drops, set to be replaced as the club begins preparations to host the PGA Championship in 2017.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 09:34:39 AM by Carl Johnson »

Matt MacIver

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2013, 01:38:27 PM »
I heard there was no choice but to re-sod again, otherwise they would have been putting on spray-painted dirt, or worse if it rained.  They are going to close the course the week after the tournament and re-do all the greens to Bermuda. 

Carl Johnson

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2013, 02:35:30 PM »
I heard there was no choice but to re-sod again, otherwise they would have been putting on spray-painted dirt, or worse if it rained.  They are going to close the course the week after the tournament and re-do all the greens to Bermuda. 

Matt, have you heard what caused the greens to die? 

Alex Miller

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 02:36:11 PM »
I heard there was no choice but to re-sod again, otherwise they would have been putting on spray-painted dirt, or worse if it rained.  They are going to close the course the week after the tournament and re-do all the greens to Bermuda. 

Matt, have you heard what caused the greens to die? 

No one say nematodes...  ;)

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2013, 08:05:49 AM »
Here's an article in today's Charlotte Observer (local daily newspaper) about the resodding.  Still, no mention of what happened.  We know they know, but aren't saying, and apparently the sports department isn't pressing Quail on it.  http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/04/24/4002027/quail-hollow-rolls-out-a-solution.html#disqus_thread

The article reports that the newly sodded greens will be playable, but softer and slower than the others.  Should be interesting.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 08:47:08 AM by Carl Johnson »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2013, 08:47:47 AM »
Isn't it amazing how often these tournament courses have major agronomic problems, despite all the expert advice?

Why doesn't anyone ever draw the conclusion that they are pushing their greens way too hard?

When is the last time St. Andrews "lost their greens" ?

Jim Colton

Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2013, 08:52:34 AM »
Tom,

Didn't St Amdrews "lose" one of their best greens back in November?

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2013, 10:31:03 AM »
I agree I think only a handful actually know the cause, but the subject greens were bad as early as last Fall.  Were they pushed too hard/far, too late in the season?  If so, by whom?  Mgt?  Members?  PGA?  Bring on the Bermuda!

Kevin Stark

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2013, 03:11:10 PM »
Isn't it amazing how often these tournament courses have major agronomic problems, despite all the expert advice?

Why doesn't anyone ever draw the conclusion that they are pushing their greens way too hard?

When is the last time St. Andrews "lost their greens" ?

How many times has St. Andrews experienced heat and humidity like what North Carolina gets?

Growing bentgrass in North Carolina is a fool's errand, especially when the soil conditions are not ideal (like at Pinehurst). Last summer pushed a lot of places over the edge that are way north of North Carolina that spend way more on their greens than Quail Hollow does.

Have they corrected the shade problems on their greens? If not, they're not going to like how miniverde responds to shade.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2013, 04:20:26 PM »
It doesn't make any sense that a cool season species like bentgrass would be suffering from heat and humidity issues in April, even in North Carolina. There must be something else going on.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2013, 08:10:23 PM »
It doesn't make any sense that a cool season species like bentgrass would be suffering from heat and humidity issues in April, even in North Carolina. There must be something else going on.

Yes, but what?

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2013, 08:59:02 PM »
It doesn't make any sense that a cool season species like bentgrass would be suffering from heat and humidity issues in April, even in North Carolina. There must be something else going on.

Yes, but what?

I know they have dealt win Bacteria Wilt in the last few years
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Kevin Stark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2013, 09:49:38 PM »
It doesn't make any sense that a cool season species like bentgrass would be suffering from heat and humidity issues in April, even in North Carolina. There must be something else going on.

You are correct that current conditions would not be like that. What I was saying is that the damage was done last summer and this is simply those problems coming home to roost. If this is a result of bacterial wilt, as Tony suggests, that would have manifested during the heat of the summer. Perhaps the prepping for the tournament pushed it over the edge, but it was almost certainly on the edge because the heat destroyed the root system, making it incapable of fending off disease or whatever finally did it in.

If the root system were healthy, absent a chemical accident it will be close to impossible to push the greens too hard in April. Now you could push it so hard that you have problems in August because of what you did in April, but you wouldn't kill them immediately in April if they were healthy to begin with.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 09:56:35 PM by Kevin Stark »

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2013, 10:24:06 PM »
Kevin,
Quail spends a lot on its greens. Money isnt the issue.

I understand they are going to champion not miniverde.  Shade is still an issue.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2013, 10:25:47 PM »
Bacterial Wilt is something, along with many other things, I know nothing about.  Five seconds on Google turned up this article referencing bacterial wilt and a name-withheld golf course in North Carolina.  http://turfdiseases.blogspot.com/2010/07/bacterial-wilt-of-bentgrass.html

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2013, 05:42:24 AM »
It doesn't make any sense that a cool season species like bentgrass would be suffering from heat and humidity issues in April, even in North Carolina. There must be something else going on.

Yes, but what?

I know they have dealt win Bacteria Wilt in the last few years

I am completely speculating and just making a comment that they have dealt with it. When Jeff (Kent) was there, he did a pretty good job of masking the bac wilt with afternoon mowing, removal of plant growth regulators, cleaning the mowers off after each green. Bac Wilt is nothing to mess around with. We had it on the edges of the greens at Colonial when I was there and there is not a chemical in the world that will stop it. Jeff was a pioneer to keep it at bay, but it's a sick feeling when very little can be done. He did several presentations about it that can be found on youtube. I do not think that this particular issue is bac wilt and it's more aggressive in warmer temps. For the sake o the golf/turf business, I trust that things will be fine and the fact that they are switching out the turf to a ultradwaft is fantastic news.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

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Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Carl Johnson

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2013, 08:16:55 AM »
http://www.turfnet.com/page/news.html/_/greens-will-be-ready-for-wells-fargo-r110

From John Reitman's turfnet.com article:

"In the 16 years that Quail Hollow superintendents have been growing G-2, segregation has been a consistent problem, resulting in stressed turf, occasional turf loss in random patterns and an overall weakened stand that Yelverton said has become nearly unmanageable. The segregation of G-2 has resulted in contamination from Poa annua, other bentgrass varieties and even some Bermudagrass, and its response to even the most basic management practices has been erratic."

Question: what exactly is meant by "segregation" (regardless of the possibility of this problem at Quail)?  How does it happen?  Why is it a problem?  Would it be related to a Bac Wilt issue?  Obviously I am not a turf expert.  I took a quick look on the web and found other references to it, but no clear explanation of exactly what it was.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 08:18:34 AM by Carl Johnson »

Kevin Stark

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2013, 08:20:53 AM »
Kevin,
Quail spends a lot on its greens. Money isnt the issue.

I understand they are going to champion not miniverde.  Shade is still an issue.

Of course they do; they must to keep bentgrass alive at all. My comment was about how greens damage happened at clubs in areas north of them that spend even more than they do. I was illustrating that growing a fescue/bent mix at St. Andrews in an ideal climate and ideal soils for that type of turf can't remotely be compared to trying to grow G2 in North Carolina. Absent closing or severly restricting access, like what Merion did leading up to the U.S. Am, there isn't much that can be done when the weather is as brutal as it has been the last three years.


Roger Wolfe

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2013, 08:25:25 PM »
Greens will be ready for Wells Fargo
Apr 25 2013 | John Reitman
 
Repair work to some of the greens at the home of the PGA Tour's Wells Fargo Championship might appear patchy on TV during this year's tournament, but that look should be nothing more than a cosmetic distraction to viewers at home, according to a turfgrass researcher who has spent years monitoring conditions at Quail Hollow Club.

Two of the aging Penn G-2 bentgrass greens at the course in Charlotte, N.C., have been sodded twice in the past three weeks to replace patches of thinned turf. The most recent repair work was performed on April 22, just nine days before the first round of the tournament scheduled for May 1-5.

Since then stories have circulated about the quality of the greens at Quail Hollow, with accounts of club members blaming PGA Tour agronomists for conditions, and a Tour official discounting those accusations. Andy Pazder, the PGA Tour's chief of operations, admitted in published reports that conditions on Nos. 8 and 10 were not up to snuff, necessitating new sod, but went on to say the damage was not the fault of Tour agronomists.

While members take shots at the Tour, Fred Yelverton, Ph.D., professor of crop science at North Carolina State University, said that blame is misguided. The culprit, he said, is a turfgrass variety ill suited for conditions at Quail Hollow.

Yelverton has been working with Quail Hollow superintendents since 1995. He said the two greens in question, as well as the 16 others, should be just fine for the tournament. He and fellow NC State professor Grady Miller, Ph.D., are working with Quail Hollow superintendent Chris Deariso and Tour agronomists to ensure playing conditions worthy of a PGA Tour event.

"All these problems are overstated," Yelverton said. "The greens are going to be just fine."
Although G-2 is a proven performer on many courses around the country for its improved shoot density, overall turf quality and disease resistance, it has been an awkward fit at Quail Hollow, where heat stress prevails for much of the year.

In the 16 years that Quail Hollow superintendents have been growing G-2, segregation has been a consistent problem, resulting in stressed turf, occasional turf loss in random patterns and an overall weakened stand that Yelverton said has become nearly unmanageable. The segregation of G-2 has resulted in contamination from Poa annua, other bentgrass varieties and even some Bermudagrass, and its response to even the most basic management practices has been erratic.

And while some headlines give the illusion the tournament might be decided upon patches of barren soil, Yelverton said conditions could have been far worse if not for the expertise of Deariso and those same PGA Tour agronomists with whom others cast blame.

"They've done an outstanding job," Yelverton said.

"I've been looking at these greens for years, and I've never seen turf segregate like G-2 has at Quail Hollow. And this is key to what everyone with a non-agronomic background is talking about. Because of that segregation, the (G-2's) response to any normal agronomic practice has been unpredictable. I've seen little patches 6 to 8 inches wide turn yellow and die from heat stress while the other 99 percent of the green is fine. And I've never seen that before, and I've never seen it anywhere other than (at Quail Hollow)."

Enough was left from the 42-inch-by-60-foot rolls of sod that some cosmetic work was performed on roll-off areas on Nos. 12 and 13.

Any problems associated with managing G-2 at Quail Hollow, however, soon will be a thing of the past.
Talk of a restoration has swirled for years at Quail Hollow, which last year was named the site of the 2017 PGA Championship. That much-needed restoration will begin later this year and will include regrassing the putting surfaces with an ultradwarf Bermudagrass, probably Champion or MiniVerde, that is better suited for August conditions in North Carolina.

"Everybody involved realized that needed to be done. It was a matter of when it was going to be put on the calendar," Yelverton said. "It wasn't a matter of if, it was a matter of when."
In the meantime, work will focus on rolling the newly sodded greens to ensure a smooth playing surface and minimal sod seams for this year's tournament. Yelverton said Stimpmeter readings for the tournament should be in the range of 10-11 feet, which is plenty of speed for Quail Hollow's undulating greens.

"Everyone needs to move on and enjoy the tournament because it's going to be a good one," Yelverton said. "I'm sure whoever wins on Sunday will think the greens putted just fine."


Dan Herrmann

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2013, 07:20:28 PM »
A friend of mine in CLT who's NOT a member at Quail Hollow said last summer was hell on his course.  Horrible heat and humidity for long periods of time.

I have no clue if it is germane to the QH problems, but I know how tough heat like that can be on bentgrass.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2013, 10:06:46 PM »
A friend of mine in CLT who's NOT a member at Quail Hollow said last summer was hell on his course.  Horrible heat and humidity for long periods of time.

I have no clue if it is germane to the QH problems, but I know how tough heat like that can be on bentgrass.

No doubt - summer was bad here in Charlotte last year.  I've heard that QH has 39 fans in operation at their greens (which are removed or hidden for the Wells Fargo), which helps a lot, however.  On the other hand, I have also heard that 8 and 10 were new greens.  I did read last summer that the 8th green was going to be completely new for this year's event - moved to the left of the old location to make it a drivable par 4 four some of the players.  In any case, we're looking forward to great tournament.  The weather promises to be on the cool side, as it has been here all spring.

Another note.  One of the articles copied above refers to turfgrass segregation being a problem, and that QH has had that problem.  Apparently after a period of time bent can modify into different genetic types on the same green, which makes maintenance much more difficult.  I'd like to have an expert shed some light on this.  However, if 8 (and maybe 10) were entirely new, then segregation would not have had time to occur on those greens.  Again, please correct this layman if he's off base here.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 10:18:24 PM by Carl Johnson »

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2013, 04:00:35 AM »
Kevin,

St. Andrew's secret is that their maintenance programme is appropriate for the climate and grass type. So many problems that clubs have with greens is that their maintenance is set up to create a certain green speed or look rather than reflecting the climate. Are the fairways also effected? If not why not?

Jon

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2013, 04:51:52 AM »
Kevin,

St. Andrew's secret is that their maintenance programme is appropriate for the climate and grass type. So many problems that clubs have with greens is that their maintenance is set up to create a certain green speed or look rather than reflecting the climate. Are the fairways also effected? If not why not?

Jon

Fairways are bermudagrass, overseeded for the event.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Quail Hollow greens issue
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2013, 05:25:05 AM »
Kevin,

St. Andrew's secret is that their maintenance programme is appropriate for the climate and grass type. So many problems that clubs have with greens is that their maintenance is set up to create a certain green speed or look rather than reflecting the climate. Are the fairways also effected? If not why not?

Jon

Fairways are bermudagrass, overseeded for the event.

More a comment rather than an answer Anthony.