Does Harbour Town Prove We are Wrong?

[Jason Topp]

I always enjoy the Harbour Town tour event.  The tightness of the course causes the professionals to hit interesting shots that must curve around tees.  The course changes the normal equation of a tour event - players hit fewer greens, need to chip more and take fewer putts than they do on other course.  The tournament tends to produce exciting finishes.

I have also played the course and greatly enjoyed it.  The setting is terrific.  I enjoyed trying to hit shots around the trees.  The greens leave you with opportunities to hole out when you hit a good approach or make a decent recovery.  The course was in great shape when I played it.

However - I would suggest Harbour Town breaks almost every single rule I generally think of with respect to quality golf course architecture.  It is extremely tight.  The greens do not have much in the way of interesting contour.  There is not much choice when playing the course in terms of the line one takes, decisions have more to do with distance one wants to hit it off the tee.  The course does not look real natural at least in spots (13 green).

Does this course demonstrate that  any type of "rules" or "guidelines" are useless in evaluating architecture? 

[Jason Topp]

I apologize but I do not expect to be real active on this thread - at least today.  Nonetheless, I thought the topic might provoke an interesting discussion.

[Tim Gavrich]

Harbour Town is a fantastic counterexample to complaints about the modern golf ball ruining golf, at least at the professional level. If the Tour sought out a few more courses like it--courses that test shotmaking and don't let players just blast away at big fairways and big greens--there would be less of the "The only way to test the pros these days is by building 8,000/9,000/10,000/50,000 yard golf courses!!!" stuff going on. Harbour Town is 7,101 yards, par 71 and plenty of golf course to test the best in the game because its main demand is craft rather than power.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jason,

It has been quite a few years since I played Harbour Town and I can't say it was ever one of my favorite, but I do think it has its place in the world of golf architecture.

Generally, I like the idea of shot shaping. Only question is whether tightness is really required to create shot shaping requirement. Is tightness the best or only way?

[JLahrman]

I was thinking about this same thing. The course is very tight, yet it proves to be a very popular Tour stop and seems to be generally well liked here. The small greens are very interesting and there are some quirky shots, but it seems to be the type of course that this group would not care for too much.

[Mark Saltzman]

The course was designed to have trees impact strategy. There are similar courses that are quite good.

I think the main complaint with trees is where they have been planted on courses designed without them in play.

[Thomas Dai]

Last week was a very different kind of week for tour golf with events coinciding at Harbour Town in the US and El Saler in Spain. Two courses very different to the normal ones used to hold pro-tour golf. I guess the small greens at Harbour Town create wear and usage maintenance issues but it was great to see pro tour players on courses like these.

All the best

[Terry Lavin]

Nothing wrong with diversity.

[Sven Nilsen]

Its a great course for the pros, who can actually shape their shots on demand and hit to the distances needed to take certain features out of play.  The wind on Sunday made the play interesting to watch, as you could track how different players were trying to adjust to the harsh conditions.

It can be a very, very difficult course for the average player.  Forced carries, narrow corridors and limitations on recovery.

I enjoy watching golf played on a course that forces the players to make decisions, not one that dictates the shots required.  I'd rather play on a course where the penalty for a miss is a more difficult shot, not a punch out under the trees.

Sven

[Peter Pallotta]

Jason - what struck me is this: if you dried out the course a little but otherwise left it exactly as it was/played this weekend, Harbour Town would be a terrific US. Open venue (as evidenced, if nothing else, by the stellar and winning play of a couple of past US Open champions).  No renovations needed, no narrowing and disfiguring of fairway lines, no 6 inch rough, no close-to-dying greens, no new tees or new length, no rebuilding of greens...just the course itself, as it has always been. To me that's interesting, as it seems to suggest that even with all this new technology etc, the RIGHT KIND of courses are in no way obsolete, even for the best players and the most rigourous championship tests.  It just so happens that the powers that be seem intent on picking the WRONG KIND of course to host championshipships, and then tearing those courses apart in the name of keeping them relevant and great. They ARE great...but simply not for what they're being asked to do. In that regard, and for whatever reason, Harbour Town remains relevant.

Peter

[Dan Kelly]

Jason --

Isn't this just another demonstration of what the late Mr. MacWood called "the Raynor Paradox" -- which I would define as follows:

Why do I like what I don't like?

Dan

P.S. I can also hear the non-late Mr. Paul saying: "It's a great big world...."

P.P.S. I think the answer to the question at the end of your thread is: "Yes." There's probably at least one exception to every rule. I think we should all have our preferences, subject to a particular course's showing us that our preferences are only that.

[Mac Plumart]

The thing about Pete Dye's Harbour Town is that it embodies architectural principles that are not necessarily in keeping with the "norms" of great architecture, but regardless...it is done right.

Other course in that part of the country embody the same principles (tight fairways, small greens, forced carries), but the way they are put together just doesn't work and makes for a bad golfing experience.

For some reason, Dye's course simply works.  I strongly believe the routing is the biggest key.  The challenges are stacked up one after the other in such a way as to create interest and fun and the tightness is removed from time to time to eliminate monotony.  And the trees are not overly packed in as to create unplayable recovery shots and/or too many lost balls.

He also juxtaposes big features and small features very well to create an odd charm to the course and the shots (most notably the big bunker on 13 and the small green...and the small green on 17 with the HUGE backdrop of the water way).

It may not be the stereotypical way to design "greatness" in golf design, but despite its apparent flaws...Harbour Town works as it is done right.

[Lou_Duran]

Who is "We"?  Awhile ago, I jotted down what I thought were the design and maintenance features preferred by this site.  As expected, I was shouted down by the likes of Dr. Childs for having the temerity to suggest that there was such a thing as an "official" gca.com set of rules or criteria.

I've played HB a few times and it is indeed tight, the greens are small and lack much movement, it is on the shortish side, and it clearly favors accuracy over distance.  At the same time, errant shots in the trees can often be saved by great recoveries, chipping and pitching is often simpler, and if you get the approaches on the green or the fringe, you feel that a birdie is very possible.  Like Colonial CC in some respects, high numbers/blow-up holes are minimal, and shooting a decent score is very possible.  It is a very playable course for a range of abilities.

 

[Jason Topp]

Who is "We"?  Awhile ago, I jotted down what I thought were the design and maintenance features preferred by this site.  As expected, I was shouted down by the likes of Dr. Childs for having the temerity to suggest that there was such a thing as an "official" gca.com set of rules or criteria.

I've played HB a few times and it is indeed tight, the greens are small and lack much movement, it is on the shortish side, and it clearly favors accuracy over distance.  At the same time, errant shots in the trees can often be saved by great recoveries, chipping and pitching is often simpler, and if you get the approaches on the green or the fringe, you feel that a birdie is very possible.  Like Colonial CC in some respects, high numbers/blow-up holes are minimal, and shooting a decent score is very possible.  It is a very playable course for a range of abilities.
 

Lou - I do not recall your thread but trust that you stuck to your guns.  I agree it is an enjoyable course for a wide variety of players.  It could be the lack of blowup holes that does it.

Mac - I do not recall any forced carries other than par threes.

One  other aspect of the course that is nice is that it is a housing course, but the trees mask the houses, making it much more visually pleasing than most courses through housing.

[Jason Topp]

Jason --

Isn't this just another demonstration of what the late Mr. MacWood called "the Raynor Paradox" -- which I would define as follows:

Why do I like what I don't like?

Dan

Something like that.  Perhaps my views on architecture should be entirely subjective.

[Tom_Doak]

Harbour Town was a reaction to the trend of architecture in the 1960's -- longer and longer courses with bigger and bigger greens -- and that's what made it popular when it opened.

Funnily enough, a lot of people still appreciate it for the exact same reason.  The course did not spawn a wave of imitation by other designers, partly because there wasn't that much being built in the 1970's, and little of what was being built was on forested land.  When the business boomed again, it was the very different TPC at Sawgrass that other designers mimicked.

The only thing in this thread that really caught my attention is that Harbour Town is now 7101 yards long [at par 71], yet it's still being described as shortish!  It was only 6600 yards when I got to know it as a kid, and they've had to add 500 yards to keep it "shortish".

[Matthew Essig]

A golf course that is tight, has minimal green contours, and has little choice when playing the course in terms of the line one takes? Sounds like a ton of golf courses here in the Pacific Northwest........       

[Jason Topp]

Jason:  no.  It doesn't prove that we're wrong. First, I'm not sure what "we" believe.  But even if we take it as fact that folks here like the firm ans fast ground game with strategic options, all that Harbor Town proves is that Tour players and Tour TV announcers LOVE a fantastic game of driving range.  And even better than that is a game of driving range "h-o-r-s-e" -- which is precisely what Harbortown is.  Golf's version of h-o-r-s-e.

Dave:

While you might be correct, I really enjoyed playing the course and others have reported the same reaction.  

[mike_beene]

Is Harbor Town one of the courses where you might do better with an older ball that curves more?

[Cristian]

How much fun is Harbour Town for a 14 hcap?

[Sean_A]

I'm not a big fan of HT simply because the trees don't allow for diversity of shots.  Too many times the recovery is the same - poke out from the trees.  That said, one must play HT on its terms - it will not be overpowered.  There is some good news with that approach, but I fear too much freedom in the game is sacrificed in throttling golfers back.  Interestingly, I liked everything else about the course except for the forest of trees - which to me is HT's chief design element.  Make the corridors 20 yards wider and you have a very interesting course with some cool features that get to take centre stage. 

Jason - evaluating architecture is a very personal matter.  We each have our opinions and preferences.  Guidelines are just that.  There is always room for the odd duck to impress. 

Ciao

[Matthew Rose]

My one and only trip to Hilton Head was about 2-3 weeks before the tournament, so it was closed and we couldn't play it. I did go in the lighthouse, though.

This is always one of my favorite events to watch on TV because it, like most Dye courses, has a character unique compared with most standard PGA and major fare, which is why I like it.
.

[jeffwarne]

I enjoy watching The tour event at Harbour Town.

The course is often in very poor shape in the summer months after the heavy rye overseed burns off and the bermuda struggles in the shade from all the overhanging trees. Never enjoyed playing the course due to my accuracy challenged game, the poor condition and 6 hour rounds.

I think there are a lot of cool holes at Harbour Town, but it lacks the variety of Long Cove.

The formula seems to work though, it's a good, interesting event, and people want to play a Tour site.
So, Big World theory at work.

[Jason Topp]

How much fun is Harbour Town for a 14 hcap?

I was about a 14 when I played it and found it very enjoyable even though we played the back tees set out for normal play (probably 6600 at the time - mid 90s).  As Lou suggests, you don't lose too many balls there - other than 14 and 18 water is not huge factor and on 18 you can bail out and avoid it.  If you are in the trees you often have some sort of interesting decision and shot to try and pull off.

I know the course has struggled with conditioning at least in the past but I played it shortly before they closed it down for the tournament so it was in terrific conditon.  Most of all, however, you feel as if you are at a cool place.

[Jason Topp]

I also think the low profile greens help.  You have a lot of chip shots but you feel like you have a good chance to get it up and down.