I played the newly restored 12th hole at GCGC today and it's just

[Patrick_Mucci]

exceptionally spectacular.

It's really, really, really neat.

The bunkering, the mounding, the green foot pad, everything about it is spectacular.

And, from the members who played it today (first day it was open), whom I spoke to, they all were very high in their praise.

I took an abundance of photos and will forward them to that "ice cooler" moron for posting on this thread.

While the hole isn't an exact replica of the original, given the maintenance constraints, it's terrific.

The mounds are fairly steep and run, like spines down the internal flanks of the putting surface.

The deep, fronting horseshoe bunker is a real challenge should the hole be cut anywhere beyond the very front of the green.

The shallow, back bunkers are also a challenge as they're fed by the sloping perimeter of the green.

The area surrounding the green at the flanks is mowed to fairway, allowing the golfer to put, chip, pitch or lob his recovery.

I hit a 2-iron to 15 feet, lined up the putt, had the caddy consult on the read, had a  perfect read and just pulled the putt a hair, missing to the left.  I was bitterly disappointed.

Took a lot of pictures and then played # 13.

When my ball was about 80 yards from the 13th green, I told the caddy that I wanted to go back and play 12 again, which I did.
This time I hit my 2-iron just off the screws and into the fronting bunker.

This hole is FUN to play.

What's neat about it is the view of the hole as you approach # 11 green.

It's such a departure from the previous eye sore.

It's really spectacular.

The only negative is that it took Tom Doak 10+ years to listen to me on restoring this hole.

Now, we just have to shift the second portion of the 7th fairway over to the right, next to the long trench bunker, but,
I don't know if I have another 10 years of golf in me, so Tom, what are you waiting for ?  # 12 is spectacular, on to # 7 

[Ed Brzezowski]

A 2 iron??  Do they still make those?

[Tom_Doak]

Now, we just have to shift the second portion of the 7th fairway over to the right, next to the long trench bunker, but,
I don't know if I have another 10 years of golf in me, so Tom, what are you waiting for ?  # 12 is spectacular, on to # 7 

Patrick:

I'll be happy to come back and do that work next year.  [I'm pretty tied up this year.]  But, I don't think it will make much difference in how the hole plays, unless you are going to stand out there all day and insist that golfers play to the right on their second shots!

I look forward to coming back to play #12, but it probably won't be until the Women's Open in June.

Will the green be up to speed for the Travis?  I think I will be in New Zealand that week ... I will have to remember to turn off my phone to avoid a lot of long distance charges.  Guys are either going to love the hole, or hate it, but I don't think there will be many on the fence.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Patrick,

I want to agree with you.

When can you have me out to Garden City to see this?

Malcolm

[Mark Chaplin]

Patrick buy a rescue club they are a little easier and more foregoing for the older player 

[David_Elvins]

Great to hear Patrick.

The old hole was blight on a fantastic course, IMO.

Look forward to the photos.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Now, we just have to shift the second portion of the 7th fairway over to the right, next to the long trench bunker, but,
I don't know if I have another 10 years of golf in me, so Tom, what are you waiting for ?  # 12 is spectacular, on to # 7  

Patrick:

I'll be happy to come back and do that work next year.  [I'm pretty tied up this year.]  But, I don't think it will make much difference in how the hole plays, unless you are going to stand out there all day and insist that golfers play to the right on their second shots!

Tom,

By bringing in the left side of the fairway, the same distance that you shift the right side of the fairway, the golfer will have to play farther right and challenge that long, deep trench bunker ( like # 3).  That now causes the golfer to have to contend more with the semi-cross bunker fronting the green.
And by shifting the left side fairway 20-30 yards toward that right side trench bunker, it now gives you more room to bring # 11 tee back, which would bring the step cross bunkers back into play.  Presently, with high tech and no wind, I have no problem challenging and flying the furthest right side bunker on # 11, and I don't believe that I should be able to do that.  Bring # 11 tee back 10, 20 or 30 yards would dramatically improve play from the back tee.  

I look forward to coming back to play #12, but it probably won't be until the Women's Open in June.

I think you'll be very pleased and that you'll enjoy playing the hole, it's really, really neat.
And it's now "unique"
After the round several quests from NJ came over to me and started to discuss # 12.
One of them said it reminded him of # 5 at Somerset Hills, only much more dramatic with the mounds much more in play at GCGC.
There are some great hole locations and unique ways of getting to them which remind one of the second green at Pine Valley.

My son dropped some balls at the back of the green and putted into the mounds which redirected the balls back toward the hole.

Other fellows who played the hole were describing, when the missed the green at the flanks, how they weren't sure whether to putt, chip, pitch or lob the ball, and whether or not to use the mound or avoid the mound.

If I had one suggestion for fine tuning, understanding that the flavor of the tees at GCGC is to remain at grade, it would be to slightly elevate the tee for visual and drainage reasons, like the forward tee.

What also shocked me, but not favorably, was all the damage done by Hurricane Sandy.
While the debris is being buried, I'd suggest using the excavated soil to create berms along the 12th and 13th property line.  

Will the green be up to speed for the Travis?

If Mother Nature co-operates with some warm temperatures and sunshine in the next 4 weeks I believe it will.
From a speed perspective it was at the same speed as the other greens, and while it played into the breeze, I didn't notice the putting surface playing much differently from the other putting surfaces in terms of reacting to approaches and recoveries.

I have to tell you that while it's not an exact replica of the original 12th, I think it's a great blend of architecture and maintenance.

As you approach that green, as you walk from the tee, the hole reveals more and more of it's unique character as you get nearer and nearer.

The first time player will be surprised by how the hole reveals itself as they approach and leave the green, and, as they look back when they're  playing # 13.

I think the hole will be extremely well received by the competitors in the Travis.

I spoke to several members who compete regularly in the Travis and they loved the hole, they thought it was neat, spectacular and a huge improvement over it's predecessor .


I think I will be in New Zealand that week ... I will have to remember to turn off my phone to avoid a lot of long distance charges.  Guys are either going to love the hole, or hate it, but I don't think there will be many on the fence.

It's not like me to not be candid, but I think that the number who will love it will far, far outnumber those who don't.
I would be shocked if any "golfers" hated it.

I can't tell you how anxious I am to return and play it, ASAP.
I wasn't going to get back to GCGC until May 4th, but now, weather permitting, I'm going to try to get back next weekend.

I think you created a truly unique hole that blends the original architectural intent with the ability to maintain under modern day demands and realities.

If I was a spectator at the Travis, I'd camp out at the 12th green as it will be interesting to see how it plays, ESPECIALLY  when it comes to recoveries .

Great job !

Now, you'll have to edit "The Confidential Guide"  

For the others, the mounds are about 3-4 feet or so in height vs the floor putting surface and they run within the green at the flanks for quite some distance

From the back of the primary tee to the back of the green it's probably 230+
From the front of the primary tee to the front of the green it's probably in the 160+ range.

It's really a very special, highly distinctive hole that's fun to play, that retains a high degree of challenge.

Can't wait to play it again.

P.S.  Tom, do you think you'd incorporate that principle in future designs ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick buy a rescue club they are a little easier and more foregoing for the older player 

Mark,

I just can't find one that I can consistently hit with the same trajectory.

I know they get he ball "up" better and that they're easier to hit, so I'll make a concerted effort to find one this summer.
In case you hadn't noticed, I'm a little bit stubborn and a bit of a traditionalist, so going to a rescue is difficult for me, but probably in he best interest of my game.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I should add that flanking CONVEX bunkers were also incorporated.

These unique features can also be found at GCGC on holes # 1, 3 and a semi at  6?,

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

I've always been curious as to how the roads that ran through the course were dealt with.  More specifically, if any of the current features were added to replicate the roads when they were removed.

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Some of the roads are still there and active, like the one that crosses the 10th hole.

In other areas, like on # 3/17 the elevated roadbed is still there.

Ditto for # 16, 15, 14 and 13, although it's most noticeable on # 16.

In addition, the town has ROW on water treatment, including a facility between # 16 green and # 15, and in front of the 8th tee between # 5 and # 8.

It's pretty neat and the roads aren't really invasive to play.

Great story,

Friends are playing # 10 and walking off the tee and toward the fairway when they come upon a lovely young lady, topless and sunbathing.

She came into the course from the 10th hole road, thought it was a park and put out a blanket and began sunbathing.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

How long ago was that (the sunbather)?

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

How long ago was that (the sunbather)?

About 15 years ago

[Mike Hendren]

Just our luck:  the only Luddite on the site plays the hole and doesn't post photographs.

Bogey

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Some of the roads are still there and active, like the one that crosses the 10th hole.

In other areas, like on # 3/17 the elevated roadbed is still there.

Ditto for # 16, 15, 14 and 13, although it's most noticeable on # 16.

In addition, the town has ROW on water treatment, including a facility between # 16 green and # 15, and in front of the 8th tee between # 5 and # 8.

It's pretty neat and the roads aren't really invasive to play.

Great story,

Friends are playing # 10 and walking off the tee and toward the fairway when they come upon a lovely young lady, topless and sunbathing.

She came into the course from the 10th hole road, thought it was a park and put out a blanket and began sunbathing.

Back to the actual course contours. 

Do any of the elevated old road sites create any blindness?  Was the elevated ground incorporated into the playing areas, or is it mostly land that is played over?  I know that GCGC has been heralded as a course that has tremendous architectural interest even though it predominately lies on the flat ground of the Hempstead Plain (the quarry area excepted).  The idea of taking the old roadways (which I imagine were probably old dirt roads) is an interesting analysis of the evolution of an old course.

I note that Ran's review doesn't mention these features, which leads one to think that what was once there has been seamlessly blended into the current configuration to the point where the player with no prior knowledge wouldn't even think to ask.

Also curious if there are any other courses from the same era that underwent similar changes.

Thanks,

Sven

[Mark McKeever]

I'm looking forward to the pictures..

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just our luck:  the only Luddite on the site plays the hole and doesn't post photographs.

Mike,

You're right, but, it was cloudy and my picture taking skills are questionable at best.

They're going to reopen the hole on May 4th and If I remember, I'll take a good camera and take some pictures if it's a sunny day.

Bogey

[Patrick_Mucci]

Back to the actual course contours. 

Do any of the elevated old road sites create any blindness? 

NO, the elevations aren't that pronounced

Was the elevated ground incorporated into the playing areas, or is it mostly land that is played over? 


You often find yourself playing from it.
In some cases it's a dirt/gravel road, in others, fairway and in others rough.

I know that GCGC has been heralded as a course that has tremendous architectural interest even though it predominately lies on the flat ground of the Hempstead Plain (the quarry area excepted).  The idea of taking the old roadways (which I imagine were probably old dirt roads) is an interesting analysis of the evolution of an old course.

I note that Ran's review doesn't mention these features, which leads one to think that what was once there has been seamlessly blended into the current configuration to the point where the player with no prior knowledge wouldn't even think to ask.

Other than on # 10, which remains an active roadway, it would take someone with a keen architectural eye to notice those things.
Ran is usually oblivious to subtle features and easily distracted by attractive passers by, so I wouldn't count on him for a detailed description.

Also curious if there are any other courses from the same era that underwent similar changes.

I'm not that familiar with some of the courses in the immediate area, but, from that era, Shinnecock and NGLA and Westhampton have roads running through them.

Garden City Country Club has a railroad running through it and I imagine, that early on, Cherry Valley and Garden City Country Club may have had roads running through them

[Will Lozier]

Pat,

I think there is a class being offered at a local NJ Community College near you entitled "Posting Internet Pictures for Morons".  You should see if they have any space left in this summer's session!  I think you might have taken (or taught!) their course "Most Effective Fonts for Teaching Morons" a while back.

Best,
Moron awaiting your pics...for f&*^ing ever!

And seriously, I kept a 2-iron in the bag until just five years ago...and I thought I was a holdout!  Get a grip man!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I think there is a class being offered at a local NJ Community College near you entitled "Posting Internet Pictures for Morons".  You should see if they have any space left in this summer's session!  I think you might have taken (or taught!) their course "Most Effective Fonts for Teaching Morons" a while back.

Will,

My aversion to picture taking stems from my misspent youth, middle and old age.

You aren't the first to admonish me for my techno-incompetence.

Let me take some nice photos when the sun is out, then forward them to those more adept.

The shame is, in taking pictures of putting surfaces, that you lose some of the contour and height.
But, to counter that, I took some pictures where the mounds blocked a portion of the flagstick, I just failed to have someone stand next to the flagstick for reference purposes.

I was going to have Tiger do it, but Bryan Izatt said that he doesn't provide an adequate frame of reference, so I told him to get lost.

Best,
Moron awaiting your pics...for f&*^ing ever!

And seriously, I kept a 2-iron in the bag until just five years ago...and I thought I was a holdout!  Get a grip man!

I got a recent tip on a Callawy and will try that.
That old 2-iron comes in pretty handy when you have to punch out low, under the trees.
Not that I'm there that often, but, you never know.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The hole is closed until May 4th, when I'll try to take photos

[William_G]

The hole is closed until May 4th, when I'll try to take photos

do or do not

[Bryan Izatt]

Well, you could just measure the flagstick.  That would be a point of reference.  You really need to get over your obsession with that 6'1" Tiger point of reference.