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John_Cullum

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Eugene CC
« on: August 08, 2008, 11:49:42 AM »
I am surprised no comments have been forthcoming on the television coverage of the Ladies US Am being played at Eugene, OR. From the USGA website: "ARCHITECT: Opened in 1926, the course was designed by H. Chandler Egan. In 1967, Robert Trent Jones Sr. reversed the routing of the original Egan design (i.e., No. 18 tee essentially became the first tee, etc."

I heard comment that the terrain I see in the fairways was caused by a flood in the 50's. That is a rather fortuitous occurrence that I guess no architect can get credit for, unless Jones did some rerouting to take advantage of these features.  Does anyone know more about this course?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Bill_McBride

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2008, 12:33:57 PM »
I haven't seen any of the TV coverage (when's it on, and where?) but did play Eugene a couple of years ago with GCAer Ari Techner who is a member.

Eugene is a very good course with way too many trees too close to playing lines.  This is not uncommon in the Pacific Northwest.  In the clubhouse there are side by side maps of the original Chandler Egan and revised RTJ routings.

The RTJ turn around really makes it a much better course.  Before, the course was more or less counterclock wise and now it's reversed.  Before there were several ponds right in front of tees, now those ponds, 4 I think, are very much in play right in front of the greens.  Three of those are pretty long and difficult par 3s, the other a par 5 with a downhill layup second shot.  In the previous routing, that hole was a short par 4 and must have been a brutal hike uphill.

Great greens, lots of contour in some, and very excellent if a bit soft conditions.   Could be all the rain out there in Oregon.  ;D

I don't think it's a Doak 8 anymore, but a strong course with some very good holes.  To earn an 8, they'd have to cut maybe a thousand trees either way back or down.  IMHO of course.

Sean Leary

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2008, 12:54:45 PM »
I haven't seen any of the TV coverage (when's it on, and where?) but did play Eugene a couple of years ago with GCAer Ari Techner who is a member.

Eugene is a very good course with way too many trees too close to playing lines.  This is not uncommon in the Pacific Northwest.  In the clubhouse there are side by side maps of the original Chandler Egan and revised RTJ routings.

The RTJ turn around really makes it a much better course.  Before, the course was more or less counterclock wise and now it's reversed.  Before there were several ponds right in front of tees, now those ponds, 4 I think, are very much in play right in front of the greens.  Three of those are pretty long and difficult par 3s, the other a par 5 with a downhill layup second shot.  In the previous routing, that hole was a short par 4 and must have been a brutal hike uphill.

Great greens, lots of contour in some, and very excellent if a bit soft conditions.   Could be all the rain out there in Oregon.  ;D

I don't think it's a Doak 8 anymore, but a strong course with some very good holes.  To earn an 8, they'd have to cut maybe a thousand trees either way back or down.  IMHO of course.

Bill,

How much narrower is it than many of the East Coast parkland greats? I feel like there are a couple of tight holes there (11 comes to mind),  but it is nowhere near as tight as say, Sahalee...
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 01:14:26 PM by Sean Leary »

Bill_McBride

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2008, 01:10:10 PM »
Sean, I would like to see some of those corridors maybe 20 yards wider, and there were a number of trees overhanging greens and tees.  I'm not sure how the super keeps everything in such good condition with all the shadow.  Those guys are good!

BCrosby

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2008, 02:34:26 PM »
Bill -

So RTJ flipped the routing to put five lakes in play near greens that on the Egan routing were next to tees and out of play?

If so, that is the best single example of the contrast between the Dark Age and the Golden Age design philosophies I've ever heard.

I've always wondered about that reversal. Were the lakes the main reason RTJ flipped the routing? Are we sure it is a better routing than Egan's?

Bob

 

 

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2008, 03:53:39 PM »
I haven't seen any of the TV coverage (when's it on, and where?)

The Women's Am is on The Golf Channel (TGC), from 4:00 - 6:00 pm EST, today and tomorrow, and from 5:00 - 7:00 pm on Sunday.  It is repeated at about 3:00 am.


Be forewarned, the men's AM is not on NBC this year for the Weekend.  THis is likley due to the Olympics.  So this year, all five days of match play will be on the TGC.

Here is the broadcast schedule per TGC:

Wednesday 8/20 1:00 PM - 4:00 PM ET GOLF
 
  Thursday 8/21 12:00 PM - 2:00 PM ET GOLF
 
  Friday 8/22 12:00 PM - 2:00 PM ET GOLF
 
  Saturday 8/23 1:00 PM - 4:00 PM ET GOLF
 
  Saturday 8/23 10:00 PM - 12:00 AM ET GOLF
 
  Sunday 8/24 1:00 PM - 4:00 PM ET GOLF
 
  Sunday 8/24 10:00 PM - 12:00 AM ET GOLF

The Wed.-Fri. will be repeated at about 12:30 am
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Bill_McBride

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2008, 06:09:52 PM »
Bill -

So RTJ flipped the routing to put five lakes in play near greens that on the Egan routing were next to tees and out of play?

If so, that is the best single example of the contrast between the Dark Age and the Golden Age design philosophies I've ever heard.

I've always wondered about that reversal. Were the lakes the main reason RTJ flipped the routing? Are we sure it is a better routing than Egan's?

Bob

 

 

All I have heard is the apocryphal quote from Trent Jones, "You've got a great course here but it needs to played in the opposite direction!"

It still has a classic feel to it but all that water is kinda Florida-ish. 

I can't really tell you which routing is better, but I know from personal experience those were tough par 3s over the water!  :P

JohnV

Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2008, 06:22:47 PM »
With the semis yet to be played for the Women's Am, we are guaranteed a Spain vs USA final.  Could this be a preview of a Sergio / Phil matchup on Sunday?

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2008, 06:26:13 PM »
Sean, I would like to see some of those corridors maybe 20 yards wider, and there were a number of trees overhanging greens and tees.  I'm not sure how the super keeps everything in such good condition with all the shadow.  Those guys are good!

Perchance an opportunity for being less 'Careful with that axe, Eugene'?

Sorry, dearest Unc, couldn't resist the rather pathetic opening for a shameless Floyd reference.

wunschter du warst hier,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Scott Stambaugh

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2008, 08:57:47 PM »
Bill -

So RTJ flipped the routing to put five lakes in play near greens that on the Egan routing were next to tees and out of play?

If so, that is the best single example of the contrast between the Dark Age and the Golden Age design philosophies I've ever heard.

I've always wondered about that reversal. Were the lakes the main reason RTJ flipped the routing? Are we sure it is a better routing than Egan's?

I believe Egan's routing did not have any lakes, only a creek.

To save the club money, Jones dug the lakes to generate fill for the project.

Scott



Bob

 

 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2008, 10:42:28 PM »
Interesting, Scott.  I hope Ari sees this so he can slip into the clubhouse and look at the early routing map from Chandler's course.  That should show the creek.  The ponds would certainly not have been important if the water was in front of tees.

Actually, one of my favorite features on a golf course is a sinuous creek (or burn, think Carnoustie!) that comes into play numerous times, either down one side or the other or at a diagonal across a fairway, or in front of a green a la Rae's Creek at ANGC.


Jed Peters

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2008, 12:20:07 AM »
At Saucon Valley, the creek comes into play all the time.

I think it's cool as hell, and could be even better if they move some tees and fairways towards the creek to have it come into play more.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2008, 04:31:54 PM »
Bill -

So RTJ flipped the routing to put five lakes in play near greens that on the Egan routing were next to tees and out of play?

If so, that is the best single example of the contrast between the Dark Age and the Golden Age design philosophies I've ever heard.

I've always wondered about that reversal. Were the lakes the main reason RTJ flipped the routing? Are we sure it is a better routing than Egan's?



Bob

 

 
I believe Egan's routing did not have any lakes, only a creek.

To save the club money, Jones dug the lakes to generate fill for the project.

Scott


Philosophically I have to go with Egan's style of routing.

Sounds like the same question as was ANGC better before or after Jones the architect got a hold of it?

To me, a creek is a far larger temptation than a pond. Ponds are to be avoided, creeks are to be risked. Furthermore, when placed like the 16th at ANGC, the pond just becomes primarily penal.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2008, 04:42:45 PM »
Eugene was terrific, a lot less claustrophobic than Sahalee. THe greens rolled great and I thought the routing change by Jones was good. Granted, I never played the Egan routing, but the Jones routing was a fun, enjoyable walk.
Mr Hurricane

Anthony Fowler

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2008, 09:53:49 PM »
I agree that Eugene is terrific.  There are too many trees, but there is more room to play than it initially appears. 

I played in the early spring and thought that that a lot of the smaller species of trees took away from the majesty of the fir trees, but seeing the course on tv in August has changes my opinion slightly.

A member mentioned that the primary reason for the re-routing was to bring water into play, and RTJ certainly accomplished this.  I think the water looks too unnatural, especially around semi-island greens on 5 and 6.  I also think the water is too redundant on the par 3's.  Playing 3 200 yard par 3's over water gets old.

I don't know which routing was better, but if the new one is better, I don't think it has much to do with water.  The best holes on the property IMO have no water in sight: 2, 3, 9, 15, . . .

Another small criticism is that the bunkers are very beautiful (can anyone post some pictures?), but they are quite simple and uninteresting to play out of because they are so shallow.  Any thoughts?  Might this have anything to do with the amount of rain in the region?  Are deep bunkers a drainage concern? 


Ari Techner

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2008, 01:53:36 AM »
Sorry I have been slow to respond to this thread.  I am on the road atm and havent had internet access other than on my phone. 

All of the great movement in the fairways was not the result of one specific flood but rather yearly flooding that occurred in the area until a large dam was built sometime in the 50's.  Before then the course was actually flooded over and unplayable for most of the winter and beginning of spring.  The story is that Jones originally planned to flatten all of the fairways and remove all of the great movement but changed his mind after a trip to the UK and a tour of all the great links.  Regardless you will not find another RTJ course with fairways like this.  It is one of my favorite parts of the course and the main thing imo that gives the course its old world feel. 

I would disagree with anyone that would characterize the conditions as soft in any way.  During the rainy season yes but in the summer the course gets very hard and very fast, a testament to Chris Gaughan the head greens keeper who imo does as good a job as anyone in the country with a course that is very challenging to maintain.  There are legit areas to run the ball up onto the green on about half the holes and in the summer this play is always an option. 

There are no "lakes" or "ponds" on the entire golf course.  There is a natural creek that is quite wide in parts that runs through the North and Northwest part of the course.  The rest of the course has no water at all.  The creek was enlarged and the routing of it slightly changed by RTJ in a few spots around holes #6, #7 and #11 and #12 but the flow of the creek is very natural to how it has always been and it was not changed at all on #5.  Egan's course had a tee where the green is now with the creek running in front of the tee instead of in front of the green like it is on RTJs routing.  It is not really any kind of island green with water only short and a somewhat right.  #6 has water short, right and left.  IMO #6 is a great hole and imo has alot of attributes of a Raynor's Prize Dogleg with the gate of fairway bunkers off the tee before the hard right turn and risk/reward decision to be made after a good drive with the water up by the green.  The layup area is pretty flat so if you layup you will generally have a 75y - 100y wedge shot over the water to a pretty big green. 

I have also never heard the criticism that the bunkers are too shallow or shallow at all.  There are quite a few spots where the bunkers are quite deep.  There really are not many fairway bunkers at all.  In fact there are only 14 in total by my count.  The ones on #3 and #4 are quite deep.  I have quite a bit of trouble getting out over the lips and onto the green and I am a low handicap player who is pretty good out of fairway bunkers.  There are plenty of deep greenside bunkers also specifically on #2, #3, #4, #8, #10, #13, #14, #15, #16 and #18.  There are no 10 foot pits like you would find on a MacDonald or Raynor course but the bunkers are definitely not shallow in most places.  The only bunkers which really strike me as shallow are some of the framing bunkers behind the greens on holes like #5, #6, #7. 

I agree that #5 and #7 are too similar a shot with a similar yardage.  #5 is 192 and downhill but always into the wind while #7 is slightly uphill and a full 200 yards and usually crosswind.  That is why I usually play one of those holes from the up tee (155 - 140) to mix it up.  The old 180 yard tee on #5 before the new tee was put in on #3 was over to the right and made the angle different and it was a better hole.  I also sometimes tee it up over there on the front of the old tee box when the lies are not too thick (@170y)  #2 is a spectacular hard long par 3 with no water and the water on #12 (180y to a great uphill plateau green) is a good 30+y short of the green and not really in play unless you hit a really bad shot.  That shot is also very different from #5 and #7.  I strongly dislike water as a major feature of a golf hole and I love this hole. 

The course is definitely tight off the tee but it is not as bad as some others and there are no tee shots that are just stupid tight.  I do believe that I could make it a much better course in a few spots with a chainsaw and a license to do whatever I wanted but all in all the trees are not really in your way in most areas.  It looks very tight visually almost everywhere because of the extreme height of the trees.  Some of the old growth redwood firs are 250+ feet tall. 

One of the main things in playing Eugene is you really have to work the ball in both directions and high/low to be successful.  Playing there has forced me to learn a whole arsenal of shots and I am a MUCH better player for it.  It might not be my favorite style of golf course but I do feel very lucky to be able to play there on a regular basis.   

If anyone has any more specific questions or anything that I missed I would be happy to answer them for you.  I am also always up for a round if anyone will be in the Eugene area and wants to see the course for themselves.   
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 02:07:59 AM by Ari Techner »

Jim Franklin

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2008, 09:19:38 AM »
Ari -

Sorry I missed you when I was out there in June. I played with an assistant and another gentleman from the golf committee (maybe the President although not sure). I loved the course and the fairway movement was terrific. Thankfully RTJ left that alone.

Jim
Mr Hurricane

John_Cullum

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2008, 10:25:06 AM »
Thank you for your insight Ari.

While many criticize the older tree lined courses, I am satisfied that if the hole lengths are sufficently mixed, players will develop more skills by having to learn to play such a course. These courses force a player to get his ball in play off of the tee and learn recovery skills when in the trees.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

tlavin

Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2008, 10:57:35 AM »
The 17th hole is an abomination.  Those trees need to go.  Dottie Pepper played it in college and they called it Shanksville Goalpost or something like that.

Ari Techner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2008, 12:16:20 AM »
Terry,

Have you ever played Eugene?  That hole looks very deceptive on TV compared to in person.  The big tree on the right is close to 100 yards short of the tree on the left side of the fairway.  In Dottie Peppers day it was different with more large fir trees on the left and another huge towering fir in the fairway where the current tree is.  Those trees fell down years ago and the hole is much better for it.  It is another example of a hole at ECC that forces you to work the ball if you want to hit driver.  Of course at 340y you can always hit a long iron off the tee and play it safe.  There are quite a few trees at Eugene that I think the course would be much better off without.  The 2 trees on 17 are not amongst them.  I have some other ideas that I think would open up the 17th a bit and it does involve tree removal (and fairway expansion) but it would leave the 2 trees as is. 

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Eugene CC
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2008, 08:56:38 AM »
thank you Ari I too loved Eugene CC and found it to have splendid shot options. Yes it is in the land of big trees but it did not play tite to me.

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