Putting your hands on the ball...

[Don_Mahaffey]

...IMO, its ALWAYS better to do it with your playing partners or a rules guy involved.
I'm not interested in entering into the Tigergate conversation other than...why was a competitor taking a drop with zero input from anyone else? And don't tell me that is common because I've played enough tournament golf, and hosted enough, and acted as a rules official enough to know that when you start picking the ball up, it is always best to do so with another involved.
And if you use the argument that he knows how to drop, you are a moron.

[Patrick_Mucci]

...IMO, its ALWAYS better to do it with your playing partners or a rules guy involved.

Unlike the US Open and PGA events, an official is not assigned to each group, so the situation differs somewhat

I'm not interested in entering into the Tigergate conversation other than...why was a competitor taking a drop with zero input from anyone else?

I think, because it's so obvious, that assistance isn't required.
In addition, most golfers don't share their inner thoughts, their intent, with their fellow competitors and/or officials.
Tiger got confused, he applied 26-1 (b) to a 26-1 (a) situation.
Who would know what he was thinking ?

And don't tell me that is common because I've played enough tournament golf, and hosted enough, and acted as a rules official enough to know that when you start picking the ball up, it is always best to do so with another involved.

Don, I equate taking a drop in that situation to marking your ball.
It's so incredibly basic.
Who would know that he confused the two sub-paragraphs of rule 26-1, ({a} and {b})

And if you use the argument that he knows how to drop, you are a moron.


But, let's say he called a fellow competitor over and said, I want to drop it "here" (same spot)
If the committee didn't have an issue with it, what makes you think that his fellow competitor would ?
And, if his fellow competitor condoned the drop, does that make a difference ?

The penalty for breach is simple, two strokes.
He was assessed two (2) strokes, so the drop isn't the issue.

[Jonathan Mallard]

...IMO, its ALWAYS better to do it with your playing partners or a rules guy involved.
I'm not interested in entering into the Tigergate conversation other than...why was a competitor taking a drop with zero input from anyone else? And don't tell me that is common because I've played enough tournament golf, and hosted enough, and acted as a rules official enough to know that when you start picking the ball up, it is always best to do so with another involved.
And if you use the argument that he knows how to drop, you are a moron.

I was caddying for a friend in the '02 Pub Links at The Orchards. The had some issues with the sprinklers on a few holes and told everyone about potential casual water.

Sure enough, we hit into it. Not to worry, put a tee down, pick a spot 8 inches away not nearer the hole, mark it, drop, play. Took all of 30 seconds.

I saw a rules official start to come running. He took two steps, and stopped. Everyone clearly saw what we were doing, noted that it was done correctly, and left it alone.

It does happen. Far too infrequently it seems.

[Bill_McBride]

...IMO, its ALWAYS better to do it with your playing partners or a rules guy involved.
I'm not interested in entering into the Tigergate conversation other than...why was a competitor taking a drop with zero input from anyone else? And don't tell me that is common because I've played enough tournament golf, and hosted enough, and acted as a rules official enough to know that when you start picking the ball up, it is always best to do so with another involved.
And if you use the argument that he knows how to drop, you are a moron.

I was caddying for a friend in the '02 Pub Links at The Orchards. The had some issues with the sprinklers on a few holes and told everyone about potential casual water.

Sure enough, we hit into it. Not to worry, put a tee down, pick a spot 8 inches away not nearer the hole, mark it, drop, play. Took all of 30 seconds.

I saw a rules official start to come running. He took two steps, and stopped. Everyone clearly saw what we were doing, noted that it was done correctly, and left it alone.

It does happen. Far too infrequently it seems.

Where did the 8 inches come from?    He's entitled to full relief plus a club length, right?   And he has to take complete relief, right?   Does 8 inches definitely get you out of the casual water condition?    Years ago I saw Brad Faxon correct a tour rookie's relief before he caused a penalty on himself by not taking relief completely from ground under repair.  Always really respected Faxon after that. 

[Pete_Pittock]

...IMO, its ALWAYS better to do it with your playing partners or a rules guy involved.
I'm not interested in entering into the Tigergate conversation other than...why was a competitor taking a drop with zero input from anyone else? And don't tell me that is common because I've played enough tournament golf, and hosted enough, and acted as a rules official enough to know that when you start picking the ball up, it is always best to do so with another involved.
And if you use the argument that he knows how to drop, you are a moron.

I was caddying for a friend in the '02 Pub Links at The Orchards. The had some issues with the sprinklers on a few holes and told everyone about potential casual water.

Sure enough, we hit into it. Not to worry, put a tee down, pick a spot 8 inches away not nearer the hole, mark it, drop, play. Took all of 30 seconds.

I saw a rules official start to come running. He took two steps, and stopped. Everyone clearly saw what we were doing, noted that it was done correctly, and left it alone.

It does happen. Far too infrequently it seems.

Where did the 8 inches come from?    He's entitled to full relief plus a club length, right?   And he has to take complete relief, right?   Does 8 inches definitely get you out of the casual water condition?    Years ago I saw Brad Faxon correct a tour rookie's relief before he caused a penalty on himself by not taking relief completely from ground under repair.  Always really respected Faxon after that. 

Bill,
It was probably on a supplemental rule sheet for that event only. Your relief procedure is correct.

[Pete_Pittock]

My rules mentor always smiled when he drove up on someone with ball in hand.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Obviously, Tiger's playing partners knew he had to take a drop because of his ball in the water. When he went back to the spot he previously played from and dropped, had one of them been with him or had a rules official been with him, he drops it properly because everyone knows the rule, and Tiger knew it too but took advantage of no one being there to look over him, TV cameras or not.

Tiger has played 100,000X (or more) competitive golf then I have, but I've been in that situation and knew to drop it as close as possible even if it meant back in the same divot. I've had a rules official direct me to try and hit the divot as my ball fell to the ground. I've watched my son in Junior tournaments be advise by another 16 year old that he had to drop it as close as possible, and I've seen my son in a USGA qualifier advise another to do the same. Every competitive golfer knows what it means to drop it as close as possible.
The more I think about this and the more I watch the tape the more I realize that Tiger cheated and I don't care who said it was OK.
Fred Ridley might be a saint, but I would not want him in charge if this is how he operates.

I'm not a Tiger hater, but it is what it is and all this explaining away and defending of the committee just turns me off even more to pro golf. Tiger gets a huge break and they give out a slow play penalty to a kid when the entire field was playing in close to 6 hours. Day and couples were a full hole behind yesterday and it wasn't because they were hunting for balls. they were slow, but no way in hell anyone is stroking the last group.

[Jonathan Mallard]

...IMO, its ALWAYS better to do it with your playing partners or a rules guy involved.
I'm not interested in entering into the Tigergate conversation other than...why was a competitor taking a drop with zero input from anyone else? And don't tell me that is common because I've played enough tournament golf, and hosted enough, and acted as a rules official enough to know that when you start picking the ball up, it is always best to do so with another involved.
And if you use the argument that he knows how to drop, you are a moron.

I was caddying for a friend in the '02 Pub Links at The Orchards. The had some issues with the sprinklers on a few holes and told everyone about potential casual water.

Sure enough, we hit into it. Not to worry, put a tee down, pick a spot 8 inches away not nearer the hole, mark it, drop, play. Took all of 30 seconds.

I saw a rules official start to come running. He took two steps, and stopped. Everyone clearly saw what we were doing, noted that it was done correctly, and left it alone.

It does happen. Far too infrequently it seems.

Where did the 8 inches come from?    He's entitled to full relief plus a club length, right?   And he has to take complete relief, right?   Does 8 inches definitely get you out of the casual water condition?    Years ago I saw Brad Faxon correct a tour rookie's relief before he caused a penalty on himself by not taking relief completely from ground under repair.  Always really respected Faxon after that. 

Casual Water from a malfunctioning sprinkler head. Very local condition. But, you're right. It might have been up to 14".

[Sam Morrow]

...IMO, its ALWAYS better to do it with your playing partners or a rules guy involved.
I'm not interested in entering into the Tigergate conversation other than...why was a competitor taking a drop with zero input from anyone else? And don't tell me that is common because I've played enough tournament golf, and hosted enough, and acted as a rules official enough to know that when you start picking the ball up, it is always best to do so with another involved.
And if you use the argument that he knows how to drop, you are a moron.

I was caddying for a friend in the '02 Pub Links at The Orchards. The had some issues with the sprinklers on a few holes and told everyone about potential casual water.

Sure enough, we hit into it. Not to worry, put a tee down, pick a spot 8 inches away not nearer the hole, mark it, drop, play. Took all of 30 seconds.

I saw a rules official start to come running. He took two steps, and stopped. Everyone clearly saw what we were doing, noted that it was done correctly, and left it alone.

It does happen. Far too infrequently it seems.

Where did the 8 inches come from?    He's entitled to full relief plus a club length, right?   And he has to take complete relief, right?   Does 8 inches definitely get you out of the casual water condition?    Years ago I saw Brad Faxon correct a tour rookie's relief before he caused a penalty on himself by not taking relief completely from ground under repair.  Always really respected Faxon after that. 

Didn't Kite do the same thing to Grant Waite in a play-off at The Kemper Open? Waite ended up winning because of it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Obviously, Tiger's playing partners knew he had to take a drop because of his ball in the water. When he went back to the spot he previously played from and dropped, had one of them been with him or had a rules official been with him, he drops it properly because everyone knows the rule, and Tiger knew it too but took advantage of no one being there to look over him, TV cameras or not.

Don, I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but, that conclusion means that you thought he cheated.

I think, fresh from looking at his option under 26-1 (b), that on arriving back at the original location, he brought 26-1 (b) back with him instead of shifting gears and applying 26-1 (a)

Tiger has played 100,000X (or more) competitive golf then I have, but I've been in that situation and knew to drop it as close as possible even if it meant back in the same divot. I've had a rules official direct me to try and hit the divot as my ball fell to the ground. I've watched my son in Junior tournaments be advise by another 16 year old that he had to drop it as close as possible, and I've seen my son in a USGA qualifier advise another to do the same. Every competitive golfer knows what it means to drop it as close as possible.


But that's not the wording in the rule.
The word "close" is never used in the rule, so you just can't insert a word of your choosing in order to emphasize and strengthen your position.

The more I think about this and the more I watch the tape the more I realize that Tiger cheated and I don't care who said it was OK.
Fred Ridley might be a saint, but I would not want him in charge if this is how he operates.

Once again, you have your facts wrong.
Ridley wasn't brought into the situation until 10:00 pm

What you and everybody else misses is that the committee ruled that the physical drop, in accordance with 26-1 (a), was appropriate.

Had Tiger never said anything in his post round interview no one would be discussing this because no one would have known his intent and would have relied SOLELY on the PHYSICAL drop which was deemed APPROPRIATE under 26-1 (a)

I'm not a Tiger hater, but it is what it is and all this explaining away and defending of the committee just turns me off even more to pro golf. Tiger gets a huge break and they give out a slow play penalty to a kid when the entire field was playing in close to 6 hours. Day and couples were a full hole behind yesterday and it wasn't because they were hunting for balls. they were slow, but no way in hell anyone is stroking the last group.

I don't know that any of us knows the details concerning the field and slow play, but Guan was warned and ignored the warnings.

If you and twenty cars were speeding at 85 in a 60 zone, would you tell the trooper stopping you that he shouldn't give you a ticket for doing 85 in a 60 zone because everyone else was doing 85 ?

[Dan King]

Golfers should be keeping their god-damn hands off the god-damn golf ball.

Cheers,
Dan King

Give me a man with big hands and big feet and no brain and I'll make a golfer out of him.
  --Walter Hagen

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

Are you suggesting the removal of all water hazards and out-of-bounds ?

How would you suggest a player proceed after hitting his ball into the pond fronting # 15 green ?

[Dan King]

Go home.

Just kidding. This was more a response to the title of the thread. Golfers need to get out of the habit of touching the ball all the time. It ain't golf. Touching the ball in stroke play should be very rare and touching it in match play should be uttlerly cryed downe. It's a shame the governing bodies have allowed the game to stray so far from golf.

Cheers,
Dan King

Hell, it ain't like losing a leg!
  --Billy Joe Patton (after losing the Masters)

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dan,
It's not a modern phenomenon, in 1807 a rule was created for medal play that allowed the player to lift a ball at any time and drop it over his shoulder w/a penalty of one stroke. The same rule was taken up by the Honourable Company in 1809, Thistle 1824,  and Perth in 1825.

There's over two hundred years of 'lifting' history in the rules, but it's not as bad as it sounds. There may be more situations today when we can, but for the most part we still can't mess with the ball without good reason, same as it was back then.

Don,
There were millions of viewers watching him, fellow competitors playing alongside him, and former Tour players doing the announcing.
It is implausible to believe that he would cheat in such an environment.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Jim, sure he must have known that he couldn't get away with anything.
Sort of like all the tour pros who have never been assessed a slow play penalty because they just walk slower before they get to the ball. They are not gaming the system, just playing by the rules, right?
Sort of like the guy whose ball ends up on the cart path with nearest relief being behind the path in the gunch, that's not really relief when all you have to do is take a few steps and drop on some nice grass, not nearest relief, but not nearer the hole. After all, it is not really about nearest relief, its about getting some good turf but not being closer to the hole.
Or like the guy who ends up on a drain in a collection area. he's short sided and needs to hit a flop, so obviously nearest relief is on the up slope, not where it really is behind him on the down slope. Who would ever be dumb enough to follow a rule that close.
Tiger knew exactly what he was doing. he looked at all his options, then decided to play from the previous spot, but...just a little better spot. everyone gives him the benefit of thinking he was doing the walk back thing keeping the spot and all that, but he never said that, He dropped it back just a bit, close enough to know the committee would not fuck with him, but far enough to give himself an advantage. he is no different then the guy who drops on the wrong side of the cart path.

[Dan King]

Those rules about lifting the ball was about irregularities on the course. We do not have those irregularities. Now we have things put on the golf course to contribute to the game. Yet now despite playing on courses designed only for playing golf, we have many, many, many more rules letting golfers paw their golf balls. It's a shame the ruling bodies didn't move closer to the essence of the game rather than away from it.

Golfers mess with the ball for no good reason on just about every single hole they play.

Cheers,
Dan King

So many people preach equity in golf. Nothing is so foreign to the truth. Does any human being receive what he conceives as equity in his life? He has got to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his metal. In golf the cardinal rules are arbitrary and not founded on eternal justice. Equity has nothing to do with the game itself. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch and play.
 --Charles Blair Macdonald

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dan,
In a set of rules for stroke play, ca. 1802 you'll find this about about playing the ball as it lies:  

That to prevent disputes in the game the ball shall be played in whatever situation it lies except when in the tract or half its depth in water, when the player shall drop the ball behind and play it with an iron.

But in that same set of rules there is a provision for lifting a ball to identify it:

That if any golfer shall be at a loss to know his own ball from his opponent’s he shall not lift any of the balls till they agree.

And another rule from that same set is similar to our present day embedded ball rule:  

That if a ball shall be so played as to stick fast in the ground, the said ball shall be loosened by the opposite party to the owner of the ball so fastened.

In a set from 1891 you'll find this nugget:

A ball may, under a penalty of two strokes, be lifted out of a difficulty of any description, and be teed behind same.

Imagine that, re-teeing a ball after lifting it from any type of irregularity, and anywhere on the course.

In 1809 a player received a free lift  for 'casual water':

If a ball lies in any of the water tracks on the green, it may be taken out, dropped behind the track, and played with an iron without losing a stroke.

I could keep going with these, but I think the point is made. There'd be no finishing a game at stroke play unless hands were laid on the ball. Match play was the more 'pure' game, and more hands off. You'd lose the hole instead of having the option of ball-in-hand.

Don,
In all the instances you mentioned you know that there is a good sized wedge of relief area that could very well be on the upslope, or on the 'good' turf. Taking the maximum advantage that the rules allow doesn't make one a cheater, and if it is later deemed that  too much advantage was taken by the player, he or she will suffer the consequences, penalty strokes or a DQ if the timing warrants it.

[Dan King]

1802 would be the second half of the history of golf.

The ruling bodies allow everyone to touch the ball during play on every hole they play. They have no clue about the game.

Cheers,
Dan King

The rules are based on three fundamental principles: That the golfer must play the ball as it lies, play the course as he finds it, and finally, where neither of the first two principles can apply, settle all questions by fair play.
 --Joseph C. Dey, Jr., 1956

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dan,

The first written rules were 1744, so that would put many of the ones I quoted in the first 1/4 or first 1/2 of the recorded rules of golf. No one knows what heck was going on before that.