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SL_Solow

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Mickelson's comment re: green speeds
« on: April 10, 2013, 09:26:07 PM »
Phil commented this week that the greens at the Masters are less of a problem for most because the tour has taken to maintaining the greens at all of its tournaments at very high speeds.  In the past, he posited, Augusta was much faster than the norm so the shock caused by the extreme contours was magnified by the speed.  Query, does this mke sense or is it another theory from the "mad scientist?"  Consider tht most of the courses have much flatter greens.  How does that impact on his theory?  Finally, how does the consistent emphasis on extreme speeds impact on expectations at clubs around the USA?

BHoover

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Re: Mickelson's comment re: green speeds
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2013, 09:32:51 PM »
Are the green speeds at Augusta really quicker than the USGA seeks at the US Open? Are Augusta's greens more undulating than Oakmont's or Merion's?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Mickelson's comment re: green speeds
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2013, 10:20:10 PM »
SL - I have no reason to doubt Phil's views on this: he's a smart fellow, and he knows Augusta (and the regular tour stops) about as well as anyone. Also, his thesis seems to be bolstered by the fact that for the last 20 years or so we've seen a lot of first time winners at the Masters; the mantra I remember hearing as a youngster - i.e. that veterans/past champions have a big advantage over the newcomers, because you need to play the Masters many times before learning how to putt those greens effectively -- doesn't seem to hold true anymore. I think that's partly because, in JN's younger days, he may have been the rare golfer who went to the course a week early, whereas today it seems that everyone -- even 14 year olds from China -- have the money and time and access to come play it for weeks beforehand, and 8, 9, 10 times. As well, I seem to remember watching the tournament years ago when it was routine to see tour pros miss, and miss badly, on both line and speed. Even a great like Ben Crenshaw would talk about those scary greens, and you'd see pretty often the putts that would keep breaking way past the hole and then roll on for another 10 feet -- but I don't see them so much anymore, from anyone, veteran or rookie. Either everyone is a better putter now than in the past (doubtful) or it's that no one is afraid of or unfamiliar with the speed anymore because they experience it week in and week out on tour. The reason they seem to shoot the lights out in Arizona is because the greens are Augusta-fast but relatively tame at most stops (or at least, easily readable) -- and so in that sense Augusta greens still present the greater challenge (and lower scores). I don't have any idea how this new standard of greens speeds affect/plays out at the hundreds of quality private clubs across the U.S., but for tournament (e.g US Open) venues, it sure seems that the pre tournament renovation talk is never about adding more contour to the greens -- it's always about flattening them out, presumably so that the greens can be made to run even faster than at the Masters. I don't know where it stops, for certainly there is some young and ambitious brain/company out there researching agronomy/turf/maintainance issues so as to one day have greens running at 18!

Peter  
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 10:24:01 PM by PPallotta »

Jim Nugent

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Re: Mickelson's comment re: green speeds
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2013, 11:27:39 PM »
Phil also said the greens are ultra soft.  He can throw darts in there, and even back the ball up.  I think he said the ball marks on the ANGC greens are bigger/deeper now than at other courses they are playing. 

Net result: ANGC greens are not scary any more. 

Matthew Rose

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Re: Mickelson's comment re: green speeds
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 01:14:43 AM »
One thing came to mind while reading this thread. Olympic '98, Shinnecock '04.

Has anyone ever complained about an unfair pin position at the Masters? Has there ever been a situation where a pin position was unplayable? As long as I've been watching the tournament, I cannot recall any such controversies.



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Doug Siebert

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Re: Mickelson's comment re: green speeds
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 02:09:52 AM »
How could there ever be an unfair pin position at the Masters, when 99% of them are the same ones they used in past tournaments?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

SL_Solow

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Re: Mickelson's comment re: green speeds
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2013, 10:47:49 AM »
The soft greens issue is interesting given the sub-air system.  What are the chances that the extra moisture is sucked out by the time we get to the weekend? 

Dan Moore

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Re: Mickelson's comment re: green speeds
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2013, 12:08:21 PM »
I was there Monday. Greens did appear soft with players leaving ball marks and having no trouble stopping the ball.  Like much of the country they had a very cold spring and growth is a little behind schedule.  They probably needed to keep things a little wetter to promote growth and without warm temps until recently that would also affect firmness.  We saw the large sub-air pumps in the trees near some greens.  Yes it will be interesting to see how firm they can get things by the weekend with the strong storm front headed their way. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Dean Stokes

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Re: Mickelson's comment re: green speeds
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2013, 12:21:34 PM »
The soft greens issue is interesting given the sub-air system.  What are the chances that the extra moisture is sucked out by the time we get to the weekend? 
I was just going to start a new thread on this....they appear far too soft - is there a reason or is this exactly how the committee wants them? These guys are stopping hybrids and 3/4 irons.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!